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Post by FreeRider on Apr 6, 2012 10:07:06 GMT -5
I thought maybe to generate more conversations, I'd start this thread for generic discussions about gear, playing, influences, music theory, tips, etc, for those of who play.
I'll start off with influences. Who influenced your guitar playing? Have you been able to get out of the copy cat mode?
My biggest influences on my playing have been Jorma Kaukonen (for the finger picking style), Pete Townshend (power chords), Neil Young (simplicity), and Pat Metheny (for melodicism). But it was Jorma that made me want to pick up the guitar and figure out how to play in that acoustic blues, Delta style, followed by the power chords and sound of Townshend and the Who. And then, learning to jam to Neil Young's simple chord changes to songs like "Down By the River"....
Sadly, I'm not so sure if I've gotten out of the copy cat mode, I still haven't found my voice. At least, I don't think I have. I'm still in the garage, don't know my scales, don't know enough music theory, to improve my playing.
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Post by GtrPlyr on Apr 6, 2012 12:11:29 GMT -5
Good idea for a thread freerider.
I'll start off with influences. Who influenced your guitar playing? Have you been able to get out of the copy cat mode?
Around 11 or 12 I remember becoming interested in guitar thanks to guys like Ace Frehley, Jimmy Page and Pete Townshend. I didn't have a guitar of my own so I started to mess around on my Dad's horrible El Degas acoustic guitar with strings a half inch from the fretboard. When I was 14 I finally got my first electric guitar and that's when I really started to immerse myself in all things guitar.
Influences/inspirations have changed over the years. The early days it was the usual Hendrix, Page, Clapton, Van Halen, Randy Rhoads, Tony Iommi et al. Then for a spell I was into shredders like Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Vinnie Moore, Eric Johnson, Steve Vai...
As I got into playing in my own bands and songwriting my influences really started to diversfy. Here's a few of my biggest musical influences, or inspirations if you will:
Joni Mitchell (her chord voicings and use of alternate tunings got me to see the potential of the guitar beyond standard tuning. To this day I still use a lot of alternate tunings in my own songs.)
The Beatles (all of them including George Martin) - Their melodicism, inventive arrangements, production and overall songwriting prowess is something that inspires me everytime I hear them.
Bob Dylan - More for the words and songs rather than his playing.
Prince - For his playing, songwriting and especially his multi-instrumental prowess. He made me want to try being a one-man band in my little home studio.
Neil Young - For his emotional voice, songwriting, playing and uncomprimising artistic vision. An inspiration on many levels.
Curtis Mayfield - His guitar playing and powerful music have been very inspriing over the years.
Sly & The Family Stone - Big influence on me as a musician.
Other big songwriting inspirations for me not already mentioned are: Harry Nilsson, Jagger/Richards, John Prine, Warren Zevon, Loudon Wainwright III, Paul Wesberberg (naturally), Randy Newman, Tom Waits, Van Morrison, Pete Townshend, Ray Davies, David Bowie, Stephin Merritt, Jeff Tweedy, Marvin Gaye, Stax, Motown...
And a few other guitar inspirations to top things off: Roy Buchanan, Lightnin' Hopkins, Eddie Hazel, Tom Verlaine, Richard Lloyd, Albert/Freddie/B.B. King, Richard Thompson, Lindsay Buckingham...
As for sounding like any of those people, I don't know. I've never been good at straight copying anything, I always end up putting my own slant on things. Not sure I have a distinct sound, I'm probably too eclectic stylistically for that to be the case.
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Post by FreeRider on Apr 6, 2012 15:36:57 GMT -5
Ahh, very interesting roots, there GtrPlyr....
funny, I think most kids started off on a crappy guitar. I started off as well on some horrible acoustic guitar of my parents where the bridge was too high and the strings were not at a good height either. When I was around 14 or 15, I borrowed my older brother's acoustic, which HE borrowed from his college buddy, a typical Yamaha acoustic and really tried to learn how to do the fancy delta blues finger picking style. I still don't do it properly, that alternating bass line with your thumb. I kind of taught myself, so it's a weird approximation of that delta finger picking or Travis picking style. It's really based on a lot of finger rolls, was how I got started.....I have no idea how guys like Leo Kottke or Mark Knopfler developed their technique and all.
And then, when in college, my brother bought a Fender Strat off of a buddy of ours. Since my brother was too tied up with work, he let me borrow the guitar and that was my first electric.
I have to say, though, that I didn't really think much about guitarists of the day growing up. My musical training started off with clarinet and later saxaphone (tenor) in the school band and jazz ensemble. I was kind of into the sax and jazz for awhile growing up---big band stuff, and be bop and Charlie Parker, Phil Woods, Wayne Shorter and Weather Report, Cannonball Adderly, etc... . I was kind of a weird kid! it's funny to think that I used to listen to jazz a lot back then (along with the other pop rock stuff on radio) but I had no idea of the musical complexity behind it because I hadn't taken any music theory classes or anything to really understand jazz, I was still in junior high school, and really playing jazz solos by ear more than having an idea of what I was doing.
It wasn't until I borrowed some records from my older cousin that I was floored by Jorma and Hot Tuna....it was a different way of playing guitar than I had ever heard anyone do. Guy's playing acoustic and electric blues and rock and roll tunes, sometimes he's flat picking, sometimes he's finger picking. But I was really intrigued by how cool the acoustic blues finger style sounded to me.
I remember getting a copy of "Who's Next" and those power chords took me down a different path and I loved the sound and power of those songs. AND they weren't too difficult to figure out how to play. Neil Young's "Harvest" and "Live Rust" and "Decade" made me want to learn both acoustic and electric just like Jorma and Hot Tuna did (and I excelled at neither!). And John Hammond Jr, had me trippin' again on the Mississippi delta acoustic blues stuff too when I picked up one of his albums.
And Pat Metheny was a jazz guitarist I saw on PBS and I was knocked out by his sound and melodic type of jazz that I thought was really accessible. I really dug his acoustic work as much as his electric stuff and I loved his guitar sound----he was the first jazz guitar guy I heard using some sort of a chorus and delay on it.
I suppose I didn't get into those shredders as much because there was no way I could play any of it! It got to be too frustrating, trying to play Cream's "Cross Roads" let alone all those metal guys who have so much fluidity and speed, other guys with prog rock fusion styles, like Jeff Beck, Adrian Belew, etc....
That's good you don't sound like your heroes....I can still hear Neil Young and on occasion, Westerberg, on my own songs. I write and record some stuff and then I think, "did I steal that from someone??!!" I dunno! Maybe...yikes!
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Squaw
Star Scout
You're the only one that you are screwin' when you put down what you don't understand~ Kristofferson
Posts: 544
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Post by Squaw on Apr 6, 2012 18:17:17 GMT -5
I'll start off with influences. Who influenced your guitar playing? Have you been able to get out of the copy cat mode? Influences. Hmm. My Appalachian upbringing and family origin dictated that one was not considered to be playing unless the mother Maybelle Carter style picking was implemented. So, that was all I needed to know! Then I saw Willie Nelson. He’s probably the most underrated guitarist out there. It’s funny FreeRider, I had posted a clip of Willie from the Ernest Tubb show on my facebook page not long before you started this thread! So Willie was the portal to the more sophisticated styles of playing with Spanish influences. Waylon Jenning’s distinct style was also a major influence. He too was and is underrated as a guitarist. I liked George Harrison’s style as well. Overall, if we aren’t limited to guitar playing, my major musical influence has been Dylan. Or is that too obvious? And I am, and forever will be, in copycat mode!
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Post by anarkissed on Apr 6, 2012 20:11:28 GMT -5
My major influences were from mid-70's glam and metal: Ritchie Blackmore, Mick Ronson, Mick Ralphs, and Ariel Bender (Luther Grosvenor) from Mott the Hoople (and Spooky Tooth)...I later became a big fan of Hendrix and Jimmy Page, and spent a lot of time listening to and trying to figure out what they were doing, but, frankly, they were somewhat more intimidating than inspiring...I tried pretty hard to play like The Edge and Peter Buck, but I never really did quite get it...I put some effort into the playing-along-with-a-record-trying-to-recreate-solos-note-for-note method, but not nearly enough...This was not so good in that I would have learned a lot more if I'd tried harder, but somewhat good in that it filtered my influences through my own misunderstanding and ineptitude, and sometimes created something slightly more original...It's funny, because people listening to you hear things differently than you do...I might spend a lot of time trying to write a song that deliberately copied T.Rex, and somebody would say: "Wow! That sounds just like Uriah Heep!" I started on an old second-hand Epiphone Wilshire, that I put some Dimarzio Super Distortions in...I upgraded to a brand new Les Paul Custom in the mid-80's...It was amazing how much difference it made to play a guitar that you could actually tune, and keep in tune...
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Squaw
Star Scout
You're the only one that you are screwin' when you put down what you don't understand~ Kristofferson
Posts: 544
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Post by Squaw on Apr 7, 2012 10:22:45 GMT -5
This thread got me thinking, who is or was the best guitar player ever? It would be a difficult question as everyone has their own sounds they’d like to hear. But if I had to go on record, I would say Bert Jansch. Sadly, he passed away last October. Have a listen…
Bert Jansch - Angie
Bert Jansch (L.A. Turnaround)
He is definitely my true guitar hero!
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Post by FreeRider on Apr 7, 2012 11:44:46 GMT -5
My major influences were from mid-70's glam and metal: Ritchie Blackmore, Mick Ronson, Mick Ralphs, and Ariel Bender (Luther Grosvenor) from Mott the Hoople (and Spooky Tooth)...I later became a big fan of Hendrix and Jimmy Page, and spent a lot of time listening to and trying to figure out what they were doing, but, frankly, they were somewhat more intimidating than inspiring...I tried pretty hard to play like The Edge and Peter Buck, but I never really did quite get it...I put some effort into the playing-along-with-a-record-trying-to-recreate-solos-note-for-note method, but not nearly enough.... Oh yeah, by far guys like Hendrix, Page, Beck were intimidating! As much as the garage band ethos has its charms, I really wish I had some lessons and knew the fretboard a lot better. Someone showed me the pentatonic scale in high school and that was cool, but I never could figure out how to go up and down the fretboard properly. I relied on my previous, albeit small, music knowledge. I can read music, but not very well (and only in the treble clef), and I can't "sight read" at all. Anyway, it was always more easy to play simply, to try and go for sounds rather than a flurry of notes.....that's where I get the inspiration from Neil Young. Wow, nice pick ups! I really grew tired of the Strat's single coil but I didn't want to swap out pickups, I wanted the guitar to basically stay as close to factory original as possible. I later got a Les Paul that had been torn up, cannabilized, it's got no real value, but it did have your classic 1970's era humbuckers! So I basically paid for the pick ups.
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Post by FreeRider on Apr 7, 2012 11:53:23 GMT -5
I'll start off with influences. Who influenced your guitar playing? Have you been able to get out of the copy cat mode? Influences. Hmm. My Appalachian upbringing and family origin dictated that one was not considered to be playing unless the mother Maybelle Carter style picking was implemented. So, that was all I needed to know! Then I saw Willie Nelson. He’s probably the most underrated guitarist out there.... Very cool!!! I was always knocked out by guys like Roy Clark (who never had learned formally and could play fiddle, guitar, banjo...). Sounds like you had a great music tradition in your family? Did your family play? yeah, I never could quite get the hang of Travis picking or figure out what/how the heck Chet Atkins did what he did with the finger style.... I'm actually curious about the Spanish style guitar, flamenco.....I dont' know how those stylists pick like they do either. They use more than just thumb, index finger and middle finger, I think. Nah, you don't say!! An obvious Dylan fan? "Tangled Up In Blue" is still one of my top 3 fave Dylan tunes.....all the others change depending on my mood. But "Blue" is always there.
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Post by GtrPlyr on Apr 7, 2012 13:33:16 GMT -5
Good to see Glam Rock get a mention. I'm a big fan of that stuff, particularly T. Rex, Mott, Slade, Suzi Quatro, New York Dolls and Sweet.
You're not the only one that was into Jazz freerider. Heck I still listen to it. Particular faves are Davis, Hancock, Kirk, Getz, Coltrane, Morgan, Rollins, Coleman, Pass... A big yes to Bert Jansch, love his music. There sure were some great acoustic players coming out of England around that time: John Martyn, Davey Graham, Nick Drake, Richard Thompson, and some great ones out of the U.S. too like John Fahey and Leo Kottke. I dig all those guys, such masters.
Speaking of underappreciated guitarists:
The emotion that Roy put in his playing was something. One of the greats.
And this guy is always fun to watch, such an amazing player:
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Post by FreeRider on Apr 7, 2012 15:48:40 GMT -5
oh yeah, Neil Young has always said he loved Bert Jansch....it's always interesting to find out who influenced OUR own guitar influences. It makes for an interesting family tree or branch line....
Roy Buchanan lived in my area, in the DC metro area and I never got to see him perform. I think Eva Cassidy also took a few guitar lessons from him. Buchanan could play anything....another guitarist who had such versatility was Clarence"Gatemouth" Brown but he wasn't as proficent as Buchanan.
Gtrplyr,
cool that you dig some jazz too. do you still tune into your local jazz station, if you still have one? I don't listen much to jazz radio anymore, but I'll still pull out some old albums now and then (yes, I still have a turn table hooked up, but the belt drive is definitely going!). I think I've got some real early Davis, playing with Dizzy Gillespie , I think, but not the 70's stuff like the famed Bitches Brew. I think my older brother had some Herbie Hancock but I didn't get into him as much. Coltrane was hard to get into! The dissonant stuff was really hard to acquire a taste for.
But really though---I wish I had taken some lessons and really learned the fretboard when I was younger. Or at least learned more about the music theory. If I had done so, I might be able to understand jazz a lot more---it seems like it's a real intellectual kind of music too, trained musicians or those knowledgeable about music theory will know what a quartet or some ensemble are doing. I read downbeat magazine once and those cats are talking about how they were communicating with each other, weaving in and out with their solos, off of some music structure....man, it was beyond me!
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Post by GtrPlyr on Apr 7, 2012 16:40:20 GMT -5
Clarence"Gatemouth" Brown but he wasn't as proficent as Buchanan. Clarence is another fave of mine. His "Down South in the Bayou County" and "Bogalusa Boogie Man" are two of my favorite records. Such diversity on those records, from blues and country to rock 'n' roll and soul. He does it all so well. cool that you dig some jazz too. do you still tune into your local jazz station, if you still have one? I don't seek it out, but I do catch Jazz on the radio every so often as the dial in the car is often tuned to CBC. They play all kinds of genres: Indie, blues, jazz, soul, country, classical. What you hear depends on the time and day you tune in. Mostly my jazz listening is on vinyl too. A good jazz record on vinyl is hard to beat. As for Herbie, I'm not big on his fusion stuff, more into his melodic '60s bop stuff. Same goes for Miles and the other jazz cats, I tend to like the more melodic stuff. A few months back I pulled out some old jazz chord sheets I have had for ages. I love playing old standards, the chord voicings are so cool on a lot of those songs. Really great exercises for my freting fingers too.
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Squaw
Star Scout
You're the only one that you are screwin' when you put down what you don't understand~ Kristofferson
Posts: 544
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Post by Squaw on Apr 7, 2012 19:49:29 GMT -5
Yes, FreeRider, my family is pretty much music obsessed. Two of my brothers play the guitar with better skill than many of the ones making a living doing it. As for me, I’m so far behind them that I don’t consider myself a guitarist. I can do your basic acoustic playing and a little picking. I’m a five finger picker in the classical style. And I love Tangled Up In Blue! It’s a fun one to play. Gtrplyr, the Buchanan and Emmanuel clips are great. I don’t see how they do it! I want to mention Dolly Parton as an influence. No really! Her open tuning and picking style has a great, if not simplistic sound. Marc Knopfler is another fantastic, freestyle player. The way he plays an electric like an acoustic or even a banjo amazes me! Here’s Mark & Chet: [youtube] www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wTVLIZaxMk&feature=related [/youtube]
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Post by anarkissed on Apr 7, 2012 21:15:46 GMT -5
No need to be defensive about Dolly Parton...She became such a megastar that this aspect of her talent was forgotten later on...
Thinking about this thread today, I'd like to note a few more guitarists; in most cases, I can't really cite them as "influences", mostly just because they were doing something I couldn't ...
- Johnny Winter: He's from really close to where I grew up, so he has that sort of hometown appeal...One of the greatest slide players I've ever seen, though that's something I never tried much...His version of "Highway 61 Revisited" is mind-blowing... - Billy Gibbons: Lot of obvious deep blues roots, but he kinda put a little acid rock in there, and that made him sound a little more original than most traditional blues purists... - Todd Rundgren: Kinda like Dolly, he became known for something else - namely, songwriting and producing - so that his guitar playing tended to be overlooked...I like that he kinda took that Hendrix/Yardbirds sound, channeled it through his pop sensibilities, and put his own kooky twist to it... - Robin Trower/Frank Marino: Since Hendrix died when I was in grade school, it was nice to have these guys whom I could actually see play live... - Michael Schenker: Eddie Van Halen and Randy Rhodes sorta eclipsed this guy, but I think he was a pretty formative influence on both of them...I like that he could shred with the best, but was always really more a melodic hard rocker than a metalhead... - Robert Fripp - Frank Zappa: I enjoyed a lot of Zappa and Mothers of Invention, but have to say, I've never really been a big fan of music that is "funny", and there was obviously a lot of humor (much of it quite brilliant) in Frank's work...Regardless, his playing is just staggering...There's some live version of him covering "Whipping Post" that is just incredible... - Andy Summers: He really seemed to be doing something completely different when The Police first came out... - Brian Setzer - Phil Manzanera - Every guitar player who has worked with David Bowie: I mentioned Mick Ronson, and I believe someone has mentioned Adrian Belew...There was also Earl Slick, and, though, for some reason, a lot of people find him annoying, the unorthodox Reeves Gabrels... - Tom Morello: his solo with Bruce Springsteen on "The Ghost of Tom Joad" during the RRHOF anniversary concert is amazing...
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Post by FreeRider on Apr 7, 2012 21:37:28 GMT -5
definitely some good guitarists there who've had impact....but yeah, like you, I can't cite any of them as influences on my own playing either! They're all just too good for me to even figure out their songs unless I have tablature or something.
I've always loved the way Billy Gibbons can get those harmonic squeals....anybody have a special technique for making them? I kind of use my index finger nail, not a pick, and I kind of hit the string with both the back of my nail and a little bit of flesh to get that harmonic. I don't know how anyone else produces them; anyone care to share how they do it?
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Post by FreeRider on Apr 7, 2012 21:40:21 GMT -5
Yes, FreeRider, my family is pretty much music obsessed. Two of my brothers play the guitar with better skill than many of the ones making a living doing it. As for me, I’m so far behind them that I don’t consider myself a guitarist. I can do your basic acoustic playing and a little picking. I’m a five finger picker in the classical style. And I love Tangled Up In Blue! It’s a fun one to play. Squaw, that's awesome....did your brothers take formal lessons? Did anyone like your uncles or parents teach them? How did you learn? I pretty much learned in a vacuum. Apart from a few other people showing me a few things, like a basic finger picking pattern (but not how to finger pick) and a pentatonic scale, it was just me in my room, listening to records and trying to imitate what I heard. didn't get me very far!
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Post by GtrPlyr on Apr 7, 2012 22:52:44 GMT -5
I don't know how anyone else produces them; anyone care to share how they do it? That's a good question. I've never analyzed how I did it until now. I choke up on the pick so it's barely visible between my index finger and thumb, then pinch the string between my index finger and pick. Speaking of pinch harmonics, I'm prety sure Roy Buchanan was the first guy credited with using them. And chalk up another Dolly fan here, particularly the early solo records and the stuff with Porter. I love some of Dolly's early girl-group singles too: Speaking of country queens, I just started reading "Tammy Wynette: Tragic Country Queen" by the guy that wrote the Neil Young bio "Shakey." Pretty interesting read so far. I pretty much learned in a vacuum. Apart from a few other people showing me a few things( I was forced to take lessons for a few months after getting my electric. But quit shortly afterward and just learned by ear and through TABs from Guitar Player, Guitar World, Guitar for the Practicing Musician, etc. I did practice scales when I was younger but haven't done much of that over the past 20 years or so. I guess I've played for so long that most of what I come up with is instinctual. My fingers know where they need to go to get the sound I'm hearing, though half the time I don't necessarily know what scale or chord I'm using. - Todd Rundgren: Kinda like Dolly, he became known for something else - namely, songwriting and producing - so that his guitar playing tended to be overlooked...I like that he kinda took that Hendrix/Yardbirds sound, channeled it through his pop sensibilities, and put his own kooky twist to it. Todd is great. The Nazz stuff, his solo stuff, the producing, the guy has done it all. Something/Anything? is one of the best records ever too for that matter. I have a friend who is good friends with Todd, played me some rare demos a few months back, real good stuff.
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Post by FreeRider on Apr 8, 2012 10:11:46 GMT -5
Thanks Grplyr, I'll have to try doing that harmonic using a pick instead of the back of my index finger nail! I think I also read where Eddie Van Halen said he figured out how to do those harmonics by seeing a Hendrix documentary and EVH said he saw where Hendrix kept his pick or something.
But as far as fretboard knowledge, when you solo, do you know where to go up and down the fretboard and where to start off, etc? I still haven't gotten to that point where I can move effortlessy through the "box" patterns on the fretboard and know where I am and how to play in tune....it's usually me just trying to find the root note of the chord and starting from there. And that's just for flat picking---I can't even figure out how Mark Knopfler or a Lindsay Buckingham finger pick their solos as if it were flat picking!
But in other words, the lessons or music theory really didn't help as much as the do-it-yourself approach by looking at tabs? Interesting---maybe I should start going through more song books and stuff and learning more chords, etc...
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Squaw
Star Scout
You're the only one that you are screwin' when you put down what you don't understand~ Kristofferson
Posts: 544
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Post by Squaw on Apr 8, 2012 10:28:00 GMT -5
Thanks FreeRider! No formal lessons for any of us. Like you, we were on our own. Naturally we all had friends who played that we could learn from and good ole chord books! We didn’t really learn from each other either. My older brother was all about Clapton, Page, Hendrix and similar artists, I was Dylan, Willie, Neil, CSN&Y, James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Carly Simon, Hoyt Axton, Arlo Guthrie type artists. My younger brother was Alice Cooper, Queen, Aerosmith, The Tubes, Cheap Trick, Rick James, Dylan & The Stones. There was some overlapping too. I was also really into the Faces, Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart, Beatles, Stones and a lot of Motown.
My folks didn’t play guitar but they were music collectors. From Dinah Washington to Bud & Travis, Dylan, Odetta, Jimmie Rodgers, The Everly Brothers to Leadbelly and Doc Watson. My grandfather could play anything but he never owned any instruments. I also have several very well known musicians, singer-songwriter relatives that I will not embarrass by mentioning. I will however share that some are Country, some RnR, two Gospel and one in a league of his own! It suffices to say that the standards were pretty high!
It’s strange that as we aged my tastes stayed pretty much the same, my older brother is now strictly Bluegrass & Country, the younger, is still a rocker, but with a healthy dose of any music that’s good! He’s the one that kept trying to sell me on PW.
And it sounds to me, FreeRider, that you know a little more about playing than you’re letting on! At least you know the vocabulary!
PS – the harmonics…I just use my middle finger! There is definitely an art to it though.
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Squaw
Star Scout
You're the only one that you are screwin' when you put down what you don't understand~ Kristofferson
Posts: 544
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Post by Squaw on Apr 8, 2012 10:38:19 GMT -5
GtrPlyr, you blow me away! I appreciate your vast knowledge. And thanks for the Dolly Parton song, I had forgotten it.
Anarkissed, man! How could I have not mentioned Frank Zappa or Johnny Winter? I’m glad you did.
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Post by anarkissed on Apr 8, 2012 10:55:01 GMT -5
Really enjoying this thread...Had been hoping for a little more discussion of what kind of instruments you played, amps, effects, so forth...I've already mentioned my vast collection of two guitars...I always had Peavy amps...I wanted something with more prestige and flash, like a Marshall, or a VOX, but the Peavy equipment was generally easier to find and a lot less expensive...I will say, I could haul one of those things around in the open back of a pickup over dirt roads to every dive bar and county fair in the area, and it would always fire right up...A friend of mine still uses one that he sold to me in 1979, and I sold back to him in 1999...I think all he's ever done to it is spray in a little contact cleaner...I had a Big Muff distortion pedal in the early days, which I threw twenty feet across a practice room into a wall when it kept shorting out...Didn't help...Had a couple of Morley volume/wahs and a Morley chorus/flanger...Had some compressors that, as far as I could tell, never made any difference one way or another...Used a cello bow sometimes, when I wanted to pretend I was Pagey...Really just making noise, but if you put enough phase and feedback in there, it sounds kinda cool...
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