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Post by anarkissed on Jun 21, 2022 13:48:23 GMT -5
Well, what about other examples? Is music the only field of endeavor that should be free to all? Films? Fiction? Non-fiction? Broadway? Painting? Shoes? If I spend ten years restoring a classic car in my garage, are you saying once I'm done, anybody should have access to it? I'm just a little to the left of Chairman Mao, but, Jesus, this is some hardcore communal property concept you have going here...It does Marx one better: Not only is a man entitled to the fruits of his labor, he's apparently entitled to the fruits of anyone's labor! After all, it's just labor! I love music. I love food. I don't expect restaurants to just hand me takeout because I love food...I can't see someone's passion for something overruling things like intellectual property and copyright law...
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Post by FreeRider on Jun 21, 2022 14:09:57 GMT -5
...I'm just a little to the left of Chairman Mao, but, Jesus, this is some hardcore communal property concept you have going here... Mao, more than ever! share and share alike, eh comrade? 😁😄 |
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Post by psychopharmacology on Jun 21, 2022 14:13:54 GMT -5
"To the world" is a bit much, you're right. I don't know man, my final point really is, as someone who has gone to extreme lengths to make sure a lot of rare and obscure music actually is preserved, I just like hearing new things and don't really have moral objection to the metaphorical sausage making because there are often so many contradictions and moving parts that it's just not worth trying to find a moral framework, and even if it was worth it, there's a lot of really horrible shit happening on this planet every day so I save my ire for the stuff that is really genuinely harmful. I'd also like to make clear that people just slapping shit on an LP or CD and selling it is disgusting and it does upset me that those people actually make money off stuff like that. If someone wants to share something, throw it up online for free or have the artist release it in some capacity. If I made something available for free and people grabbed it and started trying to sell it, I would be livid, this Mats release doesn't seem to be that. I also think it's kind of weird we're all assuming that PW and co aren't seeing any money from this release, how do we know that?
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Post by anarkissed on Jun 21, 2022 14:15:50 GMT -5
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Post by FreeRider on Jun 21, 2022 14:17:55 GMT -5
We could think of things like that all day to use as examples. Really my point boils down to the fact that I don't think music is a temple, I think it's something to be used, enjoyed, and studied. I don't feel this makes me a bad person and I don't really care if it does? I just like music, what can I say. If something helps people get through life, why think about it too hard? Basically I don't think anyone has the right to take themselves that seriously and if you do, you're doing it wrong. I don't know if there's anything left to say, really. Anyway, apparently as per the Hoffman forum these things are still shipping, so anyone who objects to the release, I don't think you should listen to this. Out of respect for the band. Well, I don't think you're a bad person and since you don't care what people think, my thoughts don't really matter I guess. But you've got your viewpoints and I have my own, I may understand a bit where you're coming from but I don't know if I agree entirely as I have my own viewpoints as well. I do understand the historical, archival instincts though, I had a little bit of that as well one time with one artist. We all make our own choices that suit us best as we see/feel fit. There are many paths in life, not everyone will travel on the path you're walking on. That's life for ya |
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Post by FreeRider on Jun 21, 2022 14:28:23 GMT -5
Thanks for posting- here is a clip I saw last year, a very good explanation of the music industry and money. And another interesting video of Neil Young in a small record shop, realizing they are selling unauthorized recordings of his work. hey, thanks for those curmudgeonman. I had seen the Neil one before. But yeah, the industry is set up to really put the band or artist behind the 8 ball, and I kind of knew that before but seeing the graphs and how it's broken down really has an impact. |
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Post by anarkissed on Jun 21, 2022 14:30:13 GMT -5
Once I had a really lucid dream. I was hanging out somewhere with Paul, like in a really low key, normal, middle class, middle America generic living room. I think he was strumming on an unplugged electric. It seemed like we already knew each other, well enough to just sort of sit there with barely any conversation, and nothing felt awkward. I even asked him at one point" "Is this a dream, or is this real?" He thought for a moment, then said: "It is a dream but that doesn't mean it's not real"...I found a shoebox filled with homemade CD's and cassettes and reel-to-reel tapes. Some of them had handwritten labels. One CD said: "Frank, listen to this and tell me what you think. Paul" I was stoked, because I assumed this was a lot of demos and alternate takes and goofy covers and shit. I asked him: "Can I take one of these CD's home with me?" Again, he paused, then said, apologetically: "We're not really able to do that yet"...
Seemed like it fit here...Heh...
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Post by psychopharmacology on Jun 21, 2022 14:32:15 GMT -5
You're all alright, and I appreciate the good natured discussion even if I've probably taken a few snarky pot-shots during my posting. I hope everyone who does listen to this release enjoys it, at least, and that it actually starts shipping soon...
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Post by FreeRider on Jun 22, 2022 9:13:04 GMT -5
Once I had a really lucid dream. I was hanging out somewhere with Paul, .. Funny, I've had a few semi-lucid dreams with Paul in it. In the two or so dreams I've had where he is in it, I kind of consciously aware I was dreaming about Paul. anyway, the dreams were all about asking him about his open tunings on guitar. And one where I was trying to play him something on guitar---again, in an open tuning---and I couldn't do it or get it right, kept flubbing up in front of him. Oh well, couldn't get validation from him 😥😁 this should probably go into as separate thread but psychopharmocology mentioned something about our assumptions and I flashed upon my own assumption about Paul maybe having a good cushion after the Glen Campbell CD sales bringing in some royalty checks for him. But now, I'm more pessimistic about just how much money he made off of it and if it would last. But since curmudgeonman posted that vid on the music industry crap and the Ted Goia essay I stumbled upon, I'm really curious now about Paul and the rest of the band's financial footing. They were obviously able to make a living and be performing artists, but how the hell do they survive nowadays? There's been a paradigm shift and streaming just ain't gonna do it for them unless they magically get re-discovered by a new generation and get well over a million streams to earn them some decent royalty payments. If what Goia claims in the essay is indeed correct, then the entire label game is just tragically stunted and too slow to recognize or promote new music that really could have a cultural impact. of course, they don't care about that, they care about the money and corporate profits, not art that enhances the world. So if these newer indie bands keep getting shoved aside by the industry's push to keep marketing the bigger, older established artists, how can they ever break through? I guess it's doable, but man, that's a helluva lot of work to constantly be on these social media platforms and giving away some of your music for free versus making a deal with the devil to get a full backing from them. If even that. More likely, they'd just drop you from the label if you don't get any hits in the first few years. And you owe them money. Like the Mats getting hammered by Warner's to recoup their money after the reunion shows. Paul is in his 60's now, adverse to touring ever again, so what the hell does he do when the money runs out? I can't see his digital downloads making him lots of money, so where is his income stream apart from the occasional royalty checks he gets? Did he ever do any financial planning for himself while saving to send Johnny to college? |
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Post by anarkissed on Jun 22, 2022 14:31:32 GMT -5
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heyoka
Second Class Scout
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Post by heyoka on Jun 22, 2022 19:27:20 GMT -5
I've followed a lot of sites that have put together 'what-if' albums or disseminated studio-demos. I'm sure most of us here have listened to PW or Replacements demos that were never formally released before, and doubtlessly many originated as bootlegs that were sold. Obviously, not a good thing to have someone profit on something they literally stole. On the other hand, a lot of record companies wouldn't care to record and release several hundred live albums that a small number of fans would want to hear. The only reason I'm not wholly against it is because these same studios will butcher re-releases (loudness war) or do a terrible job archiving and preserving their material. There's plenty of movies, music, tv, and video games that are lost to time. Just look at the list of stuff lost in the 2008 Universal Fire alone. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Universal_Studios_fire#List_of_artists_affected,_according_to_The_New_York_Times |
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Post by curmudgeonman on Jun 23, 2022 9:27:26 GMT -5
But since curmudgeonman posted that vid on the music industry crap and the Ted Goia essay I stumbled upon, I'm really curious now about Paul and the rest of the band's financial footing. They were obviously able to make a living and be performing artists, but how the hell do they survive nowadays? There's been a paradigm shift and streaming just ain't gonna do it for them unless they magically get re-discovered by a new generation and get well over a million streams to earn them some decent royalty payments.... ...Like the Mats getting hammered by Warner's to recoup their money after the reunion shows. Paul is in his 60's now, adverse to touring ever again, so what the hell does he do when the money runs out? I can't see his digital downloads making him lots of money, so where is his income stream apart from the occasional royalty checks he gets? Here is a quote from Westerberg from a Magnet interview years ago: “For the major-label records, we ran up an enormous bill, trashing hotel rooms and the bus and the lights we didn’t need. We always thought each record was going to sell a million, and we did it five times and got burned five times and got stuck with a big bill.”And of course during the reunion tour, he revealed that Warners was garnishing money made from the tour to pay back the advances the band took, and their debt they incurred during their time at the label (and I'm sure interest was accrued during the decades). I have always speculated that Paul gave up on the reunion simply because he realized it was not going to net him the money he thought he deserved, that the debt was deeper than he thought. And speaking of Warners- the live recording that is the subject of this thread is not a Warner's release (Rhino, Sire, Reprise, etc). It is Cobraside, and Rough Trade seems to distribute a lot of unauthorized recordings in Europe. Warners Music owns everything that is Replacements, and I hardly believe that they would license this recording out to a tiny "label" to sell copies. |
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Post by anarkissed on Jun 23, 2022 14:48:49 GMT -5
So are we speculating that maybe the reason Paul isn't all on board to put out live albums and DVD's from the reunion era is because he just doesn't want to make money that will only pay back Warners?
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Jun 23, 2022 17:12:32 GMT -5
So are we speculating that maybe the reason Paul isn't all on board to put out live albums and DVD's from the reunion era is because he just doesn't want to make money that will only pay back Warners? I think we're debunking the idea/justification that Paul is wealthy beyond all imagination and doesn't need the income generated by bootlegged releases.
Stay tuned for the next episode: I've been buying their albums for years. They owe ME! 
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Post by curmudgeonman on Jun 23, 2022 17:36:45 GMT -5
So are we speculating that maybe the reason Paul isn't all on board to put out live albums and DVD's from the reunion era is because he just doesn't want to make money that will only pay back Warners? No, I'm speculating that maybe the reason Westerberg pulled the plug on the reunion tour is that he was "whoring himself" to play and pay the "pimp" (Warners). Basically the old "pay to play" paradigm. As far as releasing new Mats content, Warners owns it; unlike REM and U2, Westerberg does not own the masters. And unlike REM, who received tens of millions in advances and paid it back because they sold 85 million records, I don't think The Replacements have settled their debt. But in recent months, Universal and Warners decided to be nice guys and wipe the debt from their numerous "legacy artists". In other words, the 90% of recording artists who never made money and owe money are getting a clean slate. Hopefully The Replacements are part of this deal. Paywall link. www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/warner-universal-major-label-wipe-debts-legacy-artists-1293564/ |
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Post by pleased2meetme on Jun 23, 2022 21:50:30 GMT -5
Would Warners be entitled to touring income way after the fact?
I can see none of them getting a dime from any of the reissues and archival projects but live performance revenue seems like it should be excluded from any arrears owed back...it's not like they got recoupeable tour support in 2015.
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Post by curmudgeonman on Jun 24, 2022 15:39:13 GMT -5
Would Warners be entitled to touring income way after the fact? I can see none of them getting a dime from any of the reissues and archival projects but live performance revenue seems like it should be excluded from any arrears owed back...it's not like they got recoupeable tour support in 2015. I imagine that Warners Music got a court order or a lien on the reunion tour to get money owed, because the tour was essentially Replacements business (they leave him alone as Grandpaboy and solo). I don't think the band signed a 360 contract deal, but I'm assuming the band likely signed a lopsided contract, with the label holding rights to the catalog and use of catalog, owning much of the Replacements "brand". The "Live at Maxwells" album was a Warner's release, and I wouldn't be surprised if royalties and profits went to pay towards the debt. I have mentioned them before, but you have a band like R.E.M., former rivals, who sign with a major label a few years later than the Replacements, receiving millions of dollars in advances. Not only did Warners make its money back, but the label and band profited quite nicely, R.E.M. becoming one of the biggest bands in the world during the 90s, selling approx 80 million records to date. This status gave R.E.M. strong leverage to renegotiate their contract, attaining ownership of their masters. The band and their management were smart. The Replacements albums sold poorly, they broke a lot of expensive things, blew through a lot of money, and pissed off a lot of people. This gave the band zero leverage, even though they were considered an important band and made great records. Call it fate or karma, but their "business model" has haunted them decades later. Bigger bands and stars than them screwed up or got screwed in their contracts. We haven't heard from Westerberg in a LONG time; it's been almost 7 years since The I Don't Cares, his last "real" project. He's makes J.D. Salinger look like an amateur. |
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Schecky
Star Scout
401-Fichier non trouv
Posts: 693
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Post by Schecky on Jun 29, 2022 20:28:39 GMT -5
It’s interesting. I just googled the I Don’t Cares.
There are coffee mugs, tote bags, tank tops, even a tapestry! And an eBay CD for almost $100.
Pretty sure Paul and Juliana aren’t making any skin from those.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,186
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Post by Jer on Jul 2, 2022 12:17:45 GMT -5
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Post by anarkissed on Jul 2, 2022 12:58:36 GMT -5
A "mandatory" live show? Like, what, court-ordered?
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