Freddy
First Class Scout
Posts: 200
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RRHOF
Dec 19, 2017 17:57:39 GMT -5
Post by Freddy on Dec 19, 2017 17:57:39 GMT -5
We all know it's a flawed institution in many ways, and the whole concept of a special club for the most deserving is something to scoff at, but I still think it's fun to discuss and debate the merits, process, and decisions. I agree for the most part, but if they had slowed their roll and took it easy on inductions (like cutting it to 2 or 3 artists/bands a year for the first 10 years) it would have held more importance....at least for me anyhow. It would have created its' own special thing like the baseball HOF. The conversations about who should be in would be much more meaningful and interesting to the fans. At some point, isn't everyone going to get in? It seems hard to take it seriously. The Beatles, Chuck Berry, the Stones....all in the HOF with The Cars? As a comparison (and maybe a bad one), I love Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey, but I don't know if they should be in the HOF with Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, etc.....there has to be a line drawn on what is elite and what is merely very good.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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RRHOF
Dec 19, 2017 18:27:29 GMT -5
Post by Jer on Dec 19, 2017 18:27:29 GMT -5
We all know it's a flawed institution in many ways, and the whole concept of a special club for the most deserving is something to scoff at, but I still think it's fun to discuss and debate the merits, process, and decisions. I agree for the most part, but if they had slowed their roll and took it easy on inductions (like cutting it to 2 or 3 artists/bands a year for the first 10 years) it would have held more importance....at least for me anyhow. It would have created its' own special thing like the baseball HOF. The conversations about who should be in would be much more meaningful and interesting to the fans. At some point, isn't everyone going to get in? It seems hard to take it seriously. The Beatles, Chuck Berry, the Stones....all in the HOF with The Cars? As a comparison (and maybe a bad one), I love Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey, but I don't know if they should be in the HOF with Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, etc.....there has to be a line drawn on what is elite and what is merely very good. I can get on board with your first point - it does seem like they'll eventually catch up and the people who should be in will be in, but there's still plenty of acts that aren't, so that's something they can always adjust later. And it is hard to take seriously, so I don't, other than the fact that it's fun to discuss. It's also hard for me to see such venom around it for the same reason - it's not that important. Your second point, however, kinda falls into the "nothing will ever be as good as...." argument that I just don't buy. I have no problem with The Cars (or even Bon Jovi) being in there with Chuck Berry or The Beatles. Baseball and rock and roll have different eras, and you can celebrate all eras under one roof. Otherwise, where is the line? What's the point at all? There will never be another Babe Ruth so we should quit celebrating greatness in the sport? A good friend of mine, a somewhat established musician, recently wrote, in the context that any Star Wars movie will never live up to The Empire Strikes Back, that thinking like that is defeatist. He's a working musician and can't stand it when people say The Clash were "the only band that mattered" or The Replacements were "the last great American rock band." I can't stand the thought and refuse to believe that great music ceased in 1970, or 1991, or whatever. I know I am going to discover my next favorite band any minute.
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RRHOF
Dec 19, 2017 22:15:39 GMT -5
Post by anarkissed on Dec 19, 2017 22:15:39 GMT -5
Otherwise, where is the line? Possibilities: - March 24, 1958...Elvis is inducted into the United States Army... - February 3, 1959...Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and J. P. "The Big Bopper" Richardson die in a plane crash... - July 7, 1968...The Yardbirds play their last live show... - April 10, 1970...Paul McCartney announces he is leaving The Beatles... - September 18, 1970...Jimi Hendrix dies... - October 4, 1970...Janis Joplin dies... - July 3, 1971...Jim Morrison dies... - July 3, 1973...David Bowie announces his "retirement"... - January 14, 1978...The Sex Pistols play their last live show... - September 25, 1980...John Bonham dies... - June 30, 1984...Huey Lewis and the News "Sports" is the number one album on Billboard's Top 200... - These are the Top Ten Billboard singles for 1989: 1)"Look Away" - Chicago 2)"My Prerogative" - Bobby Brown 3)"Every Rose Has Its Thorn" - Poison 4)"Straight Up" - Paula Abdul 5)"Miss You Much" - Janet Jackson 6)"Cold Hearted" - Paula Abdul 7)"Wind Beneath My Wings" - Bette Midler 8)"Girl You Know It's True" - Milli Vanilli 9)"Baby, I Love Your Way/Freebird Medley" - Will to Power 10)"Giving You the Best That I Got" - Anita Baker... - April 7, 1994...Kurt Cobain dies... - June 11, 2002..."American Idol" debuts... - November 23, 2008...Guns N' Roses release "Chinese Democracy"... - April 21, 2016...Prince dies... - December 19, 2017...I posted this...
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Post by raccoon on Dec 20, 2017 18:04:18 GMT -5
Just gonna throw in a penny along the lines of 'there is still some good music out there that stacks up': Some of Wilco is as good as any of the classic rock bands that are so venerated.
Also, why can't individuals get in on their own merits? Randy Rhoads, Mick Taylor, The synth player from Right Said Fred...
Also and completely unrelated, anybody remember that song by America called 'Don't Cross the River?' "Don't cross the river if you can't swim the tide." Umm do rivers even have tides? Just wondering. Still a great song but now its bugging me. This is what happens to me when there is no new PW material and baseball season is over. Also, put Dale Murphy in the HOF already. MVP of 82 and 83. C'mon. If he was a lifelong Yankee he would be in right now and we all know it.
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wibbler
Dances With Posts
"bleeding but we ain't cut"
Posts: 46
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RRHOF
Dec 20, 2017 23:29:09 GMT -5
Post by wibbler on Dec 20, 2017 23:29:09 GMT -5
"Don't cross the river if you can't swim the tide." Umm do rivers even have tides? Just wondering. Yes, they can have tides; especially near the mouth of the river. Here's a link to a river-flow chart that usually has its peaks and troughs matching the ocean tide: www.ecan.govt.nz/data/riverflow/sitedetails/66634#RiverflowData
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RRHOF
Dec 21, 2017 0:04:44 GMT -5
Post by anarkissed on Dec 21, 2017 0:04:44 GMT -5
Also, why can't individuals get in on their own merits? Mick Taylor. Mick Taylor was inducted as a Rolling Stone in 1989. Did you mean to say he should also be inducted on his own? He could be, as a solo artist...
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Freddy
First Class Scout
Posts: 200
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RRHOF
Dec 21, 2017 10:26:10 GMT -5
Post by Freddy on Dec 21, 2017 10:26:10 GMT -5
"Don't cross the river if you can't swim the tide." Umm do rivers even have tides? Just wondering. Yes, they can have tides; especially near the mouth of the river. Here's a link to a river-flow chart that usually has its peaks and troughs matching the ocean tide: www.ecan.govt.nz/data/riverflow/sitedetails/66634#RiverflowDataGreat stuff right there!!! I have to admit, I wouldn't be at all upset if Murph got in, he was one of my favorites (along with Garvey) growing up. I was just trying to make a connection (albeit kind of weak) between the baseball and rock n roll HOF's and how they seem to be different in how the level of greatness is discerned. My arguments aren't great, and I think there are some great points in opposition to what I believe, yet I still can't help but think that the rock n roll HOF made a bad tactical error by rushing to have a HOF roster instead of letting the cake bake over a long period of time. For instance in 1986, 10 were put in. In 1987, 15 were put in, including Big Joe Turner, The Coasters, and Ricky Nelson. Each has a case, but those are artists that could be going in down the road and could have kept the integrity of the yearly inductees intact for a VERY long time. Twenty five members in the first two years and they hadn't even gotten to The Beatles, Stevie Wonder, The Stones, etc yet. I know I'm beating a dead and irrelevant horse. I know it's sort of a subjective topic, but again, I just can't help but feel that I wouldn't feel like the Hall of Fame was so cheap if they hadn't rushed to pack in as many artists as they could early on.
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Post by raccoon on Dec 21, 2017 13:34:26 GMT -5
Wibbler - thanks for keeping me 'current' on river tides
Freddy - Garvey was definitely a badass (if a bit of a dork) and should be in the Hall
Anarkissed - About the Taylor thing..I guess I am wondering about guys like Randy Rhoads or Vivian Campbell or even Dave Navarro. Jane's Addiction made 3 fanfuckingtastic records but I think they won't and shouldn't ever get into the RRHOF (Even though their contribution to music absolutely smokes Bon Jovi's - what a joke that they are in). Yet Navarro, despite being something of a tool, is an amazing guitar player. Campbell is the same deal. Don't see Dio getting in but Vivian is just hellacious on the axe. Rhoads was Godlike. There is probably a guitarist hall of fame that I don't even know about. But it goes beyond guitarists. I am thinking of HOF caliber musicians that are members of bands that won't ever get in. Thoughts?
Side question - who is the most glaring omission from the RRHOF? I vote for Gram Parsons. He influenced an entire SOUND. Are you listening Eagles, Poco, Uncle Tupelo etc..?
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RRHOF
Dec 21, 2017 21:16:07 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by towilmusic on Dec 21, 2017 21:16:07 GMT -5
Randy Rhoads did things w the guitar that were above 99.9% of us. I saw him on Ozzy's Diary tour in 80/81 still a highpoint of my live gigs.
Unfortunately, folks like Gram and the 'Mats never had hits/sold enuff😡
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RRHOF
Dec 21, 2017 21:28:43 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by towilmusic on Dec 21, 2017 21:28:43 GMT -5
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The Muggler
Dances With Posts
One foot in the door...
Posts: 74
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RRHOF
Dec 21, 2017 21:38:00 GMT -5
Post by The Muggler on Dec 21, 2017 21:38:00 GMT -5
Nina Simone is the only one in this year's crop of inductees whose music still moves me without relying on nostalgia.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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RRHOF
Dec 22, 2017 13:48:24 GMT -5
Post by Jer on Dec 22, 2017 13:48:24 GMT -5
Otherwise, where is the line? Possibilities: - March 24, 1958...Elvis is inducted into the United States Army... - February 3, 1959...Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and J. P. "The Big Bopper" Richardson die in a plane crash... - July 7, 1968...The Yardbirds play their last live show... - April 10, 1970...Paul McCartney announces he is leaving The Beatles... - September 18, 1970...Jimi Hendrix dies... - October 4, 1970...Janis Joplin dies... - July 3, 1971...Jim Morrison dies... - July 3, 1973...David Bowie announces his "retirement"... - January 14, 1978...The Sex Pistols play their last live show... - September 25, 1980...John Bonham dies... - June 30, 1984...Huey Lewis and the News "Sports" is the number one album on Billboard's Top 200... - These are the Top Ten Billboard singles for 1989: 1)"Look Away" - Chicago 2)"My Prerogative" - Bobby Brown 3)"Every Rose Has Its Thorn" - Poison 4)"Straight Up" - Paula Abdul 5)"Miss You Much" - Janet Jackson 6)"Cold Hearted" - Paula Abdul 7)"Wind Beneath My Wings" - Bette Midler 8)"Girl You Know It's True" - Milli Vanilli 9)"Baby, I Love Your Way/Freebird Medley" - Will to Power 10)"Giving You the Best That I Got" - Anita Baker... - April 7, 1994...Kurt Cobain dies... - June 11, 2002..."American Idol" debuts... - November 23, 2008...Guns N' Roses release "Chinese Democracy"... - April 21, 2016...Prince dies... - December 19, 2017...I posted this... I'm not sure what this even means. 1989 was a great year for music. Every year is. You can take the top 10 songs from most years in history and l probably hate eight of them. It makes me sad that people sit there with their Zeppelin, or Clash, or whatever records and go "there's no good music like this anymore." It's just lazy. If you're passionate about music you'll seek it out. If your lazy and nostalgic you'll listen to the records you bought 20 years ago and bitch about the new bands like your grandparents did about The Beatles. If you were excited about The Clash in 1980 then you might be excited about Lee Bains III & The Glory Fires in 2017. They remind me of The Clash in a lot of ways. Maybe in 2040 they'll be nominated. Rock and Roll isn't dead, our generation has just become lazy. Anarkissed - About the Taylor thing..I guess I am wondering about guys like Randy Rhoads or Vivian Campbell or even Dave Navarro. Jane's Addiction made 3 fanfuckingtastic records but I think they won't and shouldn't ever get into the RRHOF (Even though their contribution to music absolutely smokes Bon Jovi's - what a joke that they are in). Yet Navarro, despite being something of a tool, is an amazing guitar player. Campbell is the same deal. Don't see Dio getting in but Vivian is just hellacious on the axe. Rhoads was Godlike. There is probably a guitarist hall of fame that I don't even know about. But it goes beyond guitarists. I am thinking of HOF caliber musicians that are members of bands that won't ever get in. Thoughts? Side question - who is the most glaring omission from the RRHOF? I vote for Gram Parsons. He influenced an entire SOUND. Are you listening Eagles, Poco, Uncle Tupelo etc..? All respect, and I know that Bon Jovi isn't really the taste of anyone in this group, and I find him and his music intolerable, but if you can look at it objectively there's no way they don't get in. They're hugely successful, they've crossed genres, they've stayed relevant for decades. There's no way they weren't getting in. They totally deserve it as much as any band in the last 30 years. Dave Navarro and Viv Campbell are interesting talking points. Both were great guitarists who did stints in a couple great bands, but I don't see them being considered on their own. There are a bunch of guys who are at the level they are/were. Now if Def Leppard got it (which I think they should) they might include Vivian. He's currently fighting cancer too, which is a bummer. And I wouldn't rule out Jane's Addiction. They were huge for a few years, and they also started Lollapalooza, which was a game changer. They sold way more records than The Replacements, so they'll likely at least get nominated. Ronnie James Dio would be interesting, between Rainbow and Sabbath, then Dio, though Dio (the band) and Rainbow I don't think would ever get in on their own. But who knows. Randy Rhoads was just exceptional way beyond anyone else, except EVH, who is in. I could see that, though I wouldn't bet on it. There's just very little respect for metal there. Randy Rhoads did things w the guitar that were above 99.9% of us. I saw him on Ozzy's Diary tour in 80/81 still a highpoint of my live gigs. Unfortunately, folks like Gram and the 'Mats never had hits/sold enuff😡 Amazing that you saw Randy. But I think Gram gets in, and probably The Replacements eventually too. Having hits and selling records is a criteria to consider, but it's not the only criteria. Tom Waits & The Velvets were never big sellers and they got in. Over time I think (hope) they'll start counting influence as a heavier criteria.
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RRHOF
Dec 22, 2017 19:29:18 GMT -5
Post by anarkissed on Dec 22, 2017 19:29:18 GMT -5
Jer...It was tongue in cheek...I was listing possible points to which cranky people could refer when they wanted to claim: "Music hasn't been any good since _____"...
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RRHOF
Dec 22, 2017 19:35:26 GMT -5
Post by FreeRider on Dec 22, 2017 19:35:26 GMT -5
anarkissed, you are pretty slick! you got us to talk about the RRHOF anyway....
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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RRHOF
Dec 26, 2017 12:56:02 GMT -5
Post by Jer on Dec 26, 2017 12:56:02 GMT -5
Jer...It was tongue in cheek...I was listing possible points to which cranky people could refer when they wanted to claim: "Music hasn't been any good since _____"... Yeah I got that, knowing your posts from the past, thanks. But crazy how widespread that mindset is. Many people actually feel that way.
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RRHOF
Dec 26, 2017 15:13:22 GMT -5
Post by anarkissed on Dec 26, 2017 15:13:22 GMT -5
Yeah, those people who stopped listening to anything after Led Zeppelin IV...I had a brief period of that after Bill Berry left R.E.M. and The Replacements broke up, but then Nirvana and Nine Inch Nails came along, then I had kids who brought new bands into the house, and fucking Spotify...If it isn't great new music, it's old music I somehow missed...There's more than I could ever listen to...I started going to little club shows again...It's really better than it has ever been...And I'm not burned out on the classics anymore, either...I still break out Led Zeppelin IV every once in awhile...Drove the son to the airport after his holiday visit...We listened to "Sgt. Pepper"...
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RRHOF
Dec 26, 2017 19:33:08 GMT -5
Post by FreeRider on Dec 26, 2017 19:33:08 GMT -5
I have a cousin who is a professor of ethnomusicology, she tells me that there have been behavioral science studies on how your musical preferences are formed. In a nutshell, the stuff you grew up listening to and liked pretty much sets your preferences for life. Not that your can't expand your musical horizons and genres, but musical preferences and tastes are pretty much set early on...
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4x8
Star Scout
Listen to music you like, not music someone says you should like.
Posts: 338
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RRHOF
Dec 29, 2017 16:02:14 GMT -5
Post by 4x8 on Dec 29, 2017 16:02:14 GMT -5
This was one of the most entertaining threads that I've read here in quite sometime!!
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4x8
Star Scout
Listen to music you like, not music someone says you should like.
Posts: 338
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RRHOF
Dec 29, 2017 16:13:49 GMT -5
Post by 4x8 on Dec 29, 2017 16:13:49 GMT -5
I have a cousin who is a professor of ethnomusicology, she tells me that there have been behavioral science studies on how your musical preferences are formed. In a nutshell, the stuff you grew up listening to and liked pretty much sets your preferences for life. Not that your can't expand your musical horizons and genres, but musical preferences and tastes are pretty much set early on... " the stuff you grew up listening to and liked pretty much sets your preferences for life " - This seems kind of obvious to me, listened to and liked, but on the other hand I grew up listening and dancing to polkas at home and at big family weddings and don't listen to polka music. I think it's more that some people like or settle for familiar pop music and don't search out new music. I am constantly searching out new bands and checking out the bands that influenced the bands that I like and so on and so forth.
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RRHOF
Dec 30, 2017 10:03:52 GMT -5
Post by FreeRider on Dec 30, 2017 10:03:52 GMT -5
yes, but did you LIKE the polka stuff growing up? did you go home from school as a teenager and hurry to put on polka records? Studies also say that the teen years is also a part of one's identity forming and music plays into it. I grew up listening to the usual pop stuff as a pre teen: Beatles, Elton John, a lot of the late 60's/early 70's pop stuff; but I also listened to jazz (big band, be-bop, modern) because I played tenor sax in the jazz ensemble in junior and high school and the symphonic band. Then around 15 or so, I really got into the Mississippi delta blues stuff (John Hammond Jr, Jorma Kaukonen, Rev. Gary Davis, other acoustic blues stuff) and more harder rock. I don't listen to jazz that much, but occasionally tune into the local jazz station and classical at times. But the preference tends to go for classic rock/garage band stuff of my youth. But I'll listen to lots of different stuff but not necessarily seek it out. “It seems that taste crystalizes around the music one is exposed to from around 16-24 years of age,” Dr. Adrian North, who heads the School of Psychology at Curtain University in Australia and was not involved in the study, told The Huffington Post in an email. “However, our actual listening continues to evolve thereafter in two ways. First, we do listen to new music, but with a bias towards that which sounds similar to that we listened to aged 16-24. So if you grew up listening to U2 you now listen to Coldplay, for instance. Second, the actual pieces we listen to tend to become more complex as we get older.”more from the article at: www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/21/taste-in-music-age_n_7344322.html
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