Rock and Roll HoF

[mc336687]

Hi Everyone!

New here to the boards, but I've been reading them for awhile. I just got back from the Rock and Roll HoF and thought I would share some stuff to fellow fans. Naturally while I was there I wore my Let It Be shirt as a silent petition to the Mats getting in. I also had the opportunity to meet several of the people in the education department all of whom immediately commented about the shirt and how the Mats need to be inducted. The VP of Education even remembered the month, year and city she was in when she bought Let It Be on vinyl and still has it to this day. So it was really cool to see so many people involved there at the HoF were fans.

However, what made my experience most memorable was when I was walking around looking at the handwritten lyrics to songs artists had donated, "Clampdown" by The Clash "Highway to Hell" by AC/DC, then my heart almost stops and I look and see a plaque that says "Here Comes A Regular" by The Replacements. Paul had donated the lyrics to HoF. It was surreal to see it. Much of the first verse was different and there was almost two extra verses on the handwritten page. I probably stood there for ten minutes just reading it over and over. So if anyone is ever at the HoF make sure to check it out!

Also from talking to people at the HoF (though they have no say in the matter) feel pretty confident that the Replacements and/or Paul will get in at some point. What are the thoughts around here on that?

[Philip Garcia]

I think there are a lot of well deserving artists who need to get into the hall of fame (John Hiatt, Jethro Tull and Warren Zevon immediately come to mind). The 'mats are definitely on this list as well, but I don't even know if it's worth it at this point. The crap they're letting in isnt rock and roll now, but pop. It's one thing to let in "early influences" from blues, etc, but another to let in rap artists and people like Madonna. At that point it seems more about being "diverse" and inclusive than about representing rock and roll, and what it stands for. It's a sad situation, and although I support some of what the R&RHoF stands for, much of it seems to be about sales and politics these days, which I suppose isn't far from what most of today's rock and roll stands for.

Phil

[Nickel]

Agree with above post. RARHOF started off as a great idea, but now it is just a marketing gimmick. They have the HOF presentatio concert, they sell the broadcasting rights, etc.

It is more about, who can we induct that will sell the most tickets vs. who deserves to be here.

I bet the Mat's wouldn't even show up if inducted. They'd probably laugh at it.

[4x8]

Yes they have pretty much lost their way... ABBA is in?!?! They might as well change the name to the POP hall of fame.

[scoOter]

i'm going to go ahead & take a contrary position. first off, i have to say that i understand what everyone says about rock & roll, and the hall itself. i get get where it is coming from when people say "no rap!" "no madonna!" or whatever. i think of the term "rock & roll" far more broadly, however. to me, i think "rock & roll" is a musical spirit that strongly affects people. it rebels, it changes, but it isn't strictly blues-based shuffle with guitar, bass, drums & vox.

to my eyes & ears, public enemy is about as rock & roll as they come. madonna utterly altered popular music, and while it might not sound like the rolling stones it, she has been swimming in, and charting her own course, in the rock & roll stream for a long time now (plus, i have heard some kick ass rock & roll madonna covers in my day).

mos def speaks to this issue in his song, "rock & roll":

kenny g ain't got no soul
john coltrane is rock & roll
you may dig on the rolling stones
but they could never rock like nina simone

(it's a great song)

[FreeRider]

scooter, i agree with your sentiments. to me, rock and roll is black music. there's just no way around it if you know your music history. and everything else (whatever genre) is just a different branch from the same tree. it all goes back to three magical chords, whether it's a I-IV-V or variation of it. i agree public enemy is rock and roll. they were loud, in your face, and full of snide. similar spirit, similar traits to any other rock band.

now do I like the idea of the HoF including acts like ABBA? Ummm, no. but I understand your viewpoint. I suspect that the Hall has had to change it's definition of what rock is because music eventually has its evolutionary periods. I'm just wondering what this current economic crisis and two wars going on will generate in the underground music scene, what new movement might come out of this. Especially if we remain in a slow growing economic slump for a few more years to come.

And I also agree with Phil that there are so many artists who flew under the radar of popular mainstream (I'd included Paul in there was well). Especially a guy like Warren Zevon who still produced some relevant work after getting dropped by the record label, could still turn a phrase, a lyric, and make you see the world another way. And it seems like the HoF are running out of people to induct---so they HAVE to sustain itself as an institution. And that's when you sort of get this watering down effect.

Just because something was popular doesn't mean it achieved a high level of artistic value. I mean, I know ABBA is/was popular and sold lots of albums, but influential? I never heard about anyone wanting to start an ABBA tribute band or do covers of their songs. But I guess some of their songs are just ingrained in the American popular culture (eg, movies, etc..) as some sort of kitsch value.

[4x8]

Scooter you make a valid point, what is considered rock n roll is very subjective and it is their hall of fame, so it's their call. It just seems there are bands that have been overlooked and other less deserved bands have gotten in ahead of them.

[FreeRider]

4x8, yes, it is indeed their hall of fame...but i still don't like the lack of consistency in how they apply the criteria. and i still roll my eyes that ABBA is in.

i mean, what kind of arguments do you think the committee has in deciding who gets in? has this thing turned into a just a high school popularity contest? i mean, who's standing up and arguing for ABBA? how did they get the political juice? are they going to let everybody in just because in their time, they were popular with mainstream radio? just looking at their website, and reading the nomination process is laughable....

but to be honest, i really don't care about the HoF.

[scoOter]

there's no perfect formula, as rock & roll really is a bastard child of mixed parentage. to me, johnny cash & hank williams deserve to be in the rock hall, too. wait, are they? to me, worthy bands/musicians don't necessary have to have produced revolution rock (it helps, though), but they need to be hugely influential to the ebb & flow of the rock & roll waters.

i recognize that my loosey goosey interpretation of "rock & roll" can be problematic as, in order to have musical halls of fame, boundaries need to be drawn, but i know rock & roll when i hear it. as i typed this, husker du, alkaline trio, public enemy, and tom petty came on my ipod. ask me what i have on my ipod, and i will anwer "rock & roll".

it bears mentioning that, like freerider, i really, really don't care about the rock hall. i'll tune in if the mats or some other musician i respect get in, but whatever. really.

in closing i will quote another artist who has similar sentiments as mr. mos def:

hot funk
cool punk
even if it's old junk
it's still rock & roll to me

[brianlux]

scoOter and FreeRider,

I also totally agree that Rock and Roll is black music. And assuming that's true and knowing rock and roll started with the blues then why are Charlie Patton, Rev. Gary Davis and Blind Willie McTell (to name a few) not inducted? I suppose there are good points to be made about the RRHOF but these and other previously stated egregious ommissions point out major flaws in the organization. Not my cup of coffee.

[brianlux]

One more note- I don't mean to offend RRHOF fans but there is one more omission from the Hall I feel compelled to mention:

John Mayall. Surely the man whose bands spawned or helped spawn the careers of Eric Clapton, Jack Bruce, Peter Green, Mick Taylor, John McVie, Mick Fleetwood, Don "Sugarcane" Harris, Harvey Mandel, Larry Taylor, Aynsley Dunbar, and Keef Hartley (among others- whew!) and who helped bring posthumous recognition to blues artist J.B. Lenoir deserves such credit.

[4x8]

I think the original intention of honoring influential bands and not letting pioneering acts be forgotten was a great goal. I was there years ago and it was a great experience walking through and taking in all of the artifacts on display. By the way, not all of the displays honor the inducted artists, there are revolving display or exhibits that will focus on a type of music or an era. These include a broader view of all involved.

It seems just like the good old 'best' songs or album or band ever/of the year/decade lists, the Hall is there to provoke discussion and keep the music alive. All of this talk and displeasure isn't surprising compared to the yearly uproar over the sports hall of fame voting. Pete Rose anyone?

[JP]

Some understandibly may see this quote as sour grapes, but I think Mr. Stanley is on the money:


Rolling Stone magazine contributor Dave Marsh, who is on the Hall of Fame nominating committee said this once of KISS:
Kiss is not a great band, Kiss was never a great band, Kiss never will be a great band, and I have done my share to keep them off the ballot."--Dave Marsh, Rolling Stone Magazine

Paul Stanley's response?:

"The beauty of America is that you can basically start any kind of private club you want to. This one happens to be called the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. It's a very impressive name for a club but it's an illusion. It's the creation of a group of industry people and critics who decide who they deem as qualified to be in their little admiration society. It's their Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but it's not the people's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Have you ever voted? I know I haven't. That's why the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, besides having people who very much belong in there, have an abundance of people who most people will scratch their head and not even have a clue who they are. I don't have anything against anybody who's been inducted, but more than a couple of them are a joke. A band or musician's impact is measured by how they change and influence society and other musicians. That and how many albums and concert tickets they sell should be what gets them into the Hall of Fame. As far as I'm concerned it's a private club with a misleading name. It's a sham."


The above is from this article, if anyone is interested:


www.examiner.com/x-7808-Cleveland-Rock-and-Roll-Hall-of-Fame-Examiner~y2009m11d13-Does-KISS-belong-in-the-Rock-and-Roll-Hall-of-Fame

[4x8]

JP, I really like Paul Stanley's response and it doesn't sound like sour grapes, it is pretty much stating the facts. I agree and understand what he's saying and especially with this sentence - "A band or musician's impact is measured by how they change and influence society and other musicians."
That to me is exactly what the main qualification should be. But that is hard to quantify and is different for everyone. How exactly do you measure a groups impact? How wide does the impact have to be?

In the very next sentence he says - "That and how many albums and concert tickets they sell should be what gets them into the Hall of Fame."
I don't agree with this, I don't think record sales or concert tickets should be considered a factor, or at least not that big of one. If that were the case we'd have more than ABBA in the HOF, we'd also have the Jona's Brothers and Justin Beiber.

I guess the discussion could and probably will go on forever, but the HOF is definitely not perfect, far from it.

[scoOter]

go paul stanley. i really don't give two shits about kiss, but his response is pretty much dead on.

"have you voted? i know i haven't."

that little bit is perfect.

what makes a band "great", mr. marsh? i'd love to know. god, the longer this discussion goes on, the less esteem i hold the rock hall. i am a rock & roller through & through. the place should appeal to me. it never has. that isn't my shortcoming.

[FreeRider]

I'm no KISS fan myself but pretty nice points by Stanley. He's dead on. Because if ABBA gets in, why not KISS? Why not the Monkees? Why not....etc

I also totally agree that Rock and Roll is black music. And assuming that's true and knowing rock and roll started with the blues then why are Charlie Patton, Rev. Gary Davis and Blind Willie McTell (to name a few) not inducted? I suppose there are good points to be made about the RRHOF but these and other previously stated egregious ommissions point out major flaws in the organization. Not my cup of coffee.

brianlux, i agree with that 100%. the Rev. Gary Davis needs to recognized as a great bluesman. He had such an influence on Jorma Kaukonen who later went on with Jefferson Airplane and Hot Tuna. and i loved that finger picking blues style Jorma has with Hot Tuna.

and yeah, like scooter said, the HoF just has no appeal to me either and i am a rock and roller too. to me, it's like it degenerated into a stupid high school popularity contest after all the early pioneers got done getting inducted and recognized.

i don't really need them to validate for me who I think are some of the most compelling artists around. it would nice to some obscure folks being recognized by a mainstream audience but i think even Paul said that he wasn't interested in fame and wasn't important, but rather the recognition from his peers was more meaningful to him.

[sivad]

I finally made my first visit to the Hall yesterday. What is sad is that I live only an hour away and hadn't taken the time to go.

Of course the first thing I wanted to do was look for those lyrics to "Here Comes a Regular." I'm pretty sure I annoyed my friend by running to the gift shop to purchase a souvenir notebook and pen just so I could write them down, because they are very different from the finished song as it appeared on "Tim." Here it is, exactly as he wrote it:

A person can work up a mean, mean thirst after a hard day of nothin' much at all
Summer's past, it's too late to cut the grass, the other tree died, so there's nothin' to do in the fall

Today I just ain't in the mood to take my place in back with the other loudmouths
The ground is wet under a harvest moon, sick of living at my father's house
Everybody wants to be special here, call our names out loud-n-clear

Here comes a regular, share a common name
Here comes a regular, am I the only one that feels ashamed

Found a drinkin' buddy in another town, but the police said you couldn't stay
Probably in the arms of your baby now
Wanna great big whiskey and I want you here today

Along side some older guy, said you can't miss what you ain't had
I'm sick of everything my money can buy
He said your crazy and stupid, I said "yeah"

If you find a picture please send it soon, make me happy if you did
I'd put it next to a picture of a harvest moon drawn by a child hung on the fridge

Took that song off the juke box, was my favorite one left
Replaced it with a #1 smash hit to listen to only makes me mad

Soon the lights come on, stools-n-chairs go up, someone will shout last call
The summer's past, soon the snow will kill the rest of the grass
Old tree died, there's nothin' to do in the fall


I stood there for at least a half an hour; I just couldn't believe I was seeing this. Incredible!

[TomT]

Damn, thats a whole nother song.

[4x8]

Thanks for posting the lyrics Traci. It's interesting to think of the song evolving into what was actually released. I'd be curious to know how long long it took and if Paul wrote down each draft of it or just winged it at the recording session with what felt right. I'm guessing the later.

Very cool, thanks again.

[bigbak]

Jul 8, 2010 14:37:32 GMT -5 FreeRider said:

scooter, i agree with your sentiments. to me, rock and roll is black music. there's just no way around it if you know your music history.

I can't disagree with this statement strongly enough, and I know my music history very, very well. I also know a little about cultural anthropology

Cultural Diffusion and Diffusion of Innovations is more prominent in music, and especially rock and roll, than any other art form.

To state an art form as diverse as Rock and Roll is the progeny of a specific race is about as racist a statement as I've ever read. That would be akin to saying oil painting is white art.

Ever listen to any Irish Folk music? English Folk Music? Scottish Folk Music? If you know your music history, then you know that those regional musical sounds had a little, tiny, itsy, bitsy influence on Rock & Roll.