evin
First Class Scout
Posts: 147
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Post by evin on Aug 10, 2008 11:14:43 GMT -5
okay so I don't know much about this site and who looks at it. maybe someone close to Darren Hill or someone that talks to Paul Westerberg. PW has said he's no interweber but there has to be some information getting back to the man. how do we convince PW to put out an actual album, cd, download that has some attention paid to production? don't get me wrong I like 49:00 and the 5:05 but i would certainly purchase and enjoy a "proper" record. i guess by "proper" record i mean complete songs, starts and finishes, a drummer other than PW, some attention paid to engineering and production. again while i enjoy 49 and 5, the guy's songs deserve more than slappin' em' down 8 trk style.
also would be cool if Paul Westerberg did an interview about these two recent releases. my feeling is he doesn't see this (these 2 releases) as a big deal so why talk to anyone about it.
i don't scour this msg brd so i don't know if this has been talked about previously. i certainly think it deserves it's own thread.
anyone...your thoughts?
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Post by curmudgeon on Aug 10, 2008 11:31:20 GMT -5
Not sure what the popular consensus is, but I'm extremely happy with the low production and actually prefer it the more polished studio stuff he put out previously. I don't know, it just seems like this stuff is more raw--more real (especially considering how Paul is live) and it's much easier for me to listen to the stuff as it is than to listen to his older solo stuff. If I want polished I can pop in any one of a dozen albums, but when I want something sloppy and sincere I know just where to go  |
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Post by pm on Aug 10, 2008 12:39:56 GMT -5
i've always enjoyed pw's rougher stuff more than the polished stuff, although i love most of his polished stuff too. maybe the rough stuff is less touched by others or has more of pw's handprints on it.
49:00/5.05 represent some of the purest stuff from the guy. the way they were created and marketed serves as a guide for all of us basement songwritters and an attack on the music business.
i think the problem that many of us have is what we've grown accustom to. i mean the record business can squeeze more money out of musicians if they insist on overproduction and then they take that cost back out of the artist's profits. listeners get used to this over polished stuff and "music" becomes something that only someone with a record contract can make. the music business is struggling these days, now is the time to open up to the non-music-business music and pw is showing us how. at least that is how i'm looking at it and that's why i want 5.05 t-shirt : )
i love these releases.
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Post by GtrPlyr on Aug 10, 2008 13:16:36 GMT -5
I think my sentiments closely follow the last 2 posters.
To my ears 49 is a "proper" release and doesn't need any fixing, or redoing. Part of its charm and power is that it is unconventional in its song structure and sequencing. I don't think a song needs to be formated to follow pop standards (verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge...) to be considered a proper song. It also doesn't need to be recorded with a full band using a 48 track studio to be a proper release. The fact that this record breaks from the norm and follows the artists vision completely makes it something worth listening to and talking about. This can't be said of most releases these days. Give me more of this pure recording style I say.
The only thing I'd like to see regarding 49:00 is a CD release, as MP3 compression is a bit too much for my liking.
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Post by Kathy on Aug 10, 2008 14:24:10 GMT -5
I mostly agree with those who love "49:00" just as it is. I think we would have missed something vital if these songs had been released as individual studio-produced songs only. It's a single cohesive piece of art which sounds horrifically pretentious but..it is.
Which is not to say that I wouldn't also love to have Paul and HOF record kick ass versions of these songs, I would. I have a fond affection for Paul's "interesting" druming on "Visitor's Day" but sure, I'd love to hear that played with a full band.
I don't think anyone could convince Paul (or any othe musician worth his/her salt) to record in aything other than the style that feels right to them. For whatever reason or combination of reasons, the DIY/basement thing is what Paul has been doing for the past 2 years (for the most part) so it clearly works for him.
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Post by adamapple on Aug 10, 2008 23:31:28 GMT -5
call me crazy, but i actually like paul's drumming, granted there have been a few cases of him slippng a bit, but it usually fits right in with the feel of the song, and he has shown he can play "better" when he tries as in, "as far as i know".....this stuff just feel like him at his most natural and untethered, which to me, has always showcased his talent best...also if you listen to 5:05 or 49:00 on nice headphones, there is alot of nuance there, layerd guitars etc not counting the bleed in edits etc....
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The Muggler
Dances With Posts
One foot in the door...
Posts: 74
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Post by The Muggler on Aug 10, 2008 23:41:20 GMT -5
...also if you listen to 5:05 or 49:00 on nice headphones, there is alot of nuance there, layerd guitars etc not counting the bleed in edits etc.... I've only really listened on headphones, as my subway commute is about the same length as 49:00, and I agree -- what at first sounds kind of sloppy is actually rather nuanced. It may sound rough and sloppy, but I get the sense that PW spent a lot of time piecing it together and getting it just the way he wanted it and not just him sloppily jamming a bunch of tracks together. |
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ih8music
Star Scout
couldn't be happier.
Posts: 943
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Post by ih8music on Aug 11, 2008 2:59:30 GMT -5
Prior to 49:00, I was definitely of the mindset that it was time for Paul to return to the studio and record something w/ other musicians & (god forbid) a producer involved. However, with 49:00, I think he nailed the DIY approach PERFECTLY and I'm more than satisfied with it, as is. Can he do it again without the next release coming across as a stale copy of 49:00? I don't know... but I'm willing to hear him try it.
That being said, I agree with Kathy and would LOVE for him to record something with the HOF lineup. Hell, at this point, I would be thrilled if it was just Michael Bland and him alone laying down tracks.
No doubt that Paul's a great guitarist and songwriter, but I think his drumming is still very poor... at BEST, it's boring and non-intrusive, at worst it's distractingly bad. To his credit, most of what I hear on 49:00 is the former - "yay, he didn't ruin the song!"
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Post by BronxTeacher on Aug 11, 2008 9:37:53 GMT -5
No doubt that Paul's a great guitarist and songwriter, but I think his drumming is still very poor... at BEST, it's boring and non-intrusive, at worst it's distractingly bad. To his credit, most of what I hear on 49:00 is the former - "yay, he didn't ruin the song!" I completely agree with this sentiment. To think, the guy used to complain about Chris Mars's drumming. (Then again, so did I, way back when.) It's not just his drumming ability that is poor, but also the sound of the drums themselves. Sometimes I wonder if Paul knows how to tune a drum or properly play the high hat. Maybe that tiny basement also makes it tough to record a decent drum sound, too. I have to say I completely disagree with the poster who said Paul's drumming was fairly good on "As Far as I Know." I think that one is a good case of where he nearly ruins the performance with the drums, but the song is so good that it overrides the poor drumming. It sounds like the drums are double-tracked, too, like Paul is drumming, poorly, over a drum machine. Despite the complaints, I love 49:00 as it is, and I was in the "he should do a studio album next as the basement thing is getting old" camp. |
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evin
First Class Scout
Posts: 147
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Post by evin on Aug 11, 2008 10:12:36 GMT -5
i don't agree that only someone with a record contract can produce a well recorded album. i have completed quite a few professional quality recordings over the years without money from a label. i think PW has a certain style when it comes to these slap em' down recordings. again i do not dislike them. in fact i love them. but i would also like to hear some of this stuff or other songs fleshed out with some attention paid to production quality.
yes the labels are struggling. and i am glad. they haven't a clue as to what is actually going on. i think these last two releases are PW testing the waters of direct to the internet/fan. i have to applaud him for that.
i don't know how much more raw or real westerberg can get in any of his recordings past and present. most of what sticks has always been the first or second take. he says this himself. everything this guy puts out is raw and real. whether he's used 3 mics to capture a track or 1.
i guess for me what is missing is the energy of 3 or 4 guys in a room ramming out a song. all together in one take with little to no overdubs. it's tough to get that energy by one's self when tracking.
i could not agree more...
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cford
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Post by cford on Aug 11, 2008 10:40:15 GMT -5
Not sure what the popular consensus is, but I'm extremely happy with the low production and actually prefer it the more polished studio stuff he put out previously. I don't know, it just seems like this stuff is more raw--more real (especially considering how Paul is live) and it's much easier for me to listen to the stuff as it is than to listen to his older solo stuff. If I want polished I can pop in any one of a dozen albums, but when I want something sloppy and sincere I know just where to go I think I 'get' what Paul was trying to do with 49:00...I am sure it is exactly what he had in mind..I still listen to it over and over...But, I also understand the desire for a more polished cd.. At times it seems more like a demo than an actual release..But, that is just because our ears are trained on more polished stuff.. CF |
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Post by FreeRider on Aug 11, 2008 11:09:52 GMT -5
I pretty much like the DIY approach that Paul has and also feel these are "proper" recordings and valid as a complete project. I think that big recording studios are no longer what they used to be with the advent of technology and it's easier for the artist to record things at home and have a quality close enough if not equal to these "professional" studio recordings. So much so that I think the big studios have fallen on hard economic times (like Electric Ladyland, etc..) because it's so easy for the artist to do these tracks at home and maybe just do some clean up in the big studios for mastering. (see NY Times article: www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/arts/music/20pare.html ) Paul uses an ADAT 8 track recorder which will record just fine and give high quality results. There is something to be said for the immediacy and the spontaneity that Paul gets from doing it himself versus having some producer tell him to go over and do the track again and again. Whose ears do you trust? Paul's or some producer? I'd rather hear what Paul wants rather than a producer. I will say that I have a hard time with Paul's drumming on occasion. i know he loves that one drum pattern with the high hat but you can hear it over and over again on a lot of songs. It would help if he had someone play drums to help him drive the song or add other nuances with well timed drum fills or cymbal crash at the right moment to accent the song. Just my opinion but again, that's what I want. That isn't what Paul wants and I'll give him the freedom to do whatever he wants because I love his songs and what he comes up with. |
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evin
First Class Scout
Posts: 147
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Post by evin on Aug 11, 2008 13:26:45 GMT -5
49:00 is absolutely a valid work of art. nothing i am getting at is trying to take away from what it is.
i'm pretty sure that westerberg has not taken a whole lot of direction from past producers. and again what is on most of the replacements and solo recordings is the first maybe second take.
if you'll notice i titled this thread "proper studio/basement recording". proper is probably not the best word to use here to express what i'm trying to say. but notice i called it "studio/basement". i could care less if it's recorded in the basement or a living room or an actual studio.
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ih8music
Star Scout
couldn't be happier.
Posts: 943
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Post by ih8music on Aug 11, 2008 16:12:13 GMT -5
I have to say I completely disagree with the poster who said Paul's drumming was fairly good on "As Far as I Know." I think that one is a good case of where he nearly ruins the performance with the drums, but the song is so good that it overrides the poor drumming. It sounds like the drums are double-tracked, too, like Paul is drumming, poorly, over a drum machine. Agree... that's the song I had in mind when I called it "distractingly bad." Anyone who disagrees should listen to pretty much any of the live versions of that song from the HOF tour and you'll hear how great that song should have been on Folker. |
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Post by pm on Aug 11, 2008 16:31:47 GMT -5
listen to pretty much any of the live versions of that song from the HOF tour and you'll hear how great that song should have been on Folker. can't argue with that. |
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Post by adamapple on Aug 11, 2008 16:35:09 GMT -5
totally disagree!..love the drumming on that song...honestly, there are plenty of other stumblina moments but that one he is in time and rolling along, super simple but no major "falling down the stair" drum fills....and i cannot remmeber ever being frustrated with chris's drumming, but i'm in a different boat, anyway, its all apples and oranges, as i read somewhere someone loved 49:00 except for that awful "devil" song, which had me falling out of my chair, as i love it...can't help opinions, we all got'em....
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Post by Philip Garcia on Aug 11, 2008 17:40:44 GMT -5
I personally love 49:00 as it stands, and I think adding more to it would take away from it. While it would be nice to have a real drummer, and production, I think by doing that you would take away the rawness, and completeness of the album. That said, I do think the songs would all benefit from better production, and a full band.
Don't get me wrong, Paul is an amazing songwriter, and a talented musician, but he's far from the best musician in the world. That's part of what makes him so good, it's the rawness and energy he shows in his music. However a band such as HOF would go a long long way. Michael Bland is one of the best drummers ever. He definitely adds something, and Paul can't remotely match it on his own. I would love to see a full band effort that isn't overly produced. Nothing near the polish of open season (which had to be polished for where it was going). Just paul, and some friends, playing the songs in his basement or some local studio. Capturing things quick and dirty onto tape, but adding the full band element that has been absent.
However when the choices are often multiple paul-only releases, or a single full band effort, well I think I have to go with the multiple paul-only releases. Some stuff just can't be duplicated, and paul writing a track and recording it down in his basement that day or whatever can't be matched with a full band (it's much harder to get a full band together at the last minute).
Phil
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Post by adamapple on Aug 11, 2008 17:52:42 GMT -5
on that thought train....one drummer i think would sound great sitting on the stool in the basement is Steve Jordan, who was in Keith Richard's touring band, the expensive whinos, he's got a great style etc.....
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evin
First Class Scout
Posts: 147
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Post by evin on Aug 11, 2008 20:19:18 GMT -5
BINGO!
josh freese on the rockers please
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Post by scoOter on Aug 12, 2008 9:20:03 GMT -5
i guess for me what is missing is the energy of 3 or 4 guys in a room ramming out a song. all together in one take with little to no overdubs. it's tough to get that energy by one's self when tracking. i can get behind this. i love 49/5, but the above quote makes a lot of sense for me. |
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