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Post by FreeRider on Nov 16, 2020 9:38:36 GMT -5
While controlling tone from the guitar is nothing new to folks who play, I did find a new nugget of info I didn't know before: he doesn't like sustain. He likes that edge of breaking up into the growly overdrive.
I don't think he's alone with the saturated overdrive thing; I've felt/heard the same thing as well with my amp, that everything gets too muddy and there the clarity of the chord devolves into one big blob of sound. There is a sweet spot in the overdrive channel for my amp and it's from 5 to maybe at the most 7 or 8 on the dial. Anything past that, it becomes just a bass and mid range blob of sound.
That's why I like Neil Young's tone. First, that Fender tweed sound is great, and second, he's got his rig set up that he can get that saturated sound but can still get clarity and the highs as well. But then again, he's doing much more than just a guitar direct into the amp. AND he's got that P90 in his neck pick up and that Firebird Gibson humbucker in his bridge.
So now it makes sense that Paul likes the lower output of P90 pick ups. Like he said during endorsement promo for his signature First Act guitar, it's a lean and mean sound. So it gets a lot of the highs versus humbuckers and he also said he prefers the amp to do a lot of the work anyway. There is no right or wrong, but I think it's interesting what his preferences are and what he wants out of his sound.
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nyc1lkg
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Post by nyc1lkg on Nov 16, 2020 15:49:04 GMT -5
I just read the interview. It's a great one that I don't think I ever read. Thank You.
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Post by anarkissed on Nov 16, 2020 16:14:20 GMT -5
I never found the tone or volume control on the guitar itself to be of any use whatsoever, unless it was to turn it down for a second while I took a hit off a joint...I always had those on 10 at all times. Anything less just seemed like you just lost power and tone. I did use a foot volume pedal to moderate the overall volume. But I never had really good amps either...
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 20, 2020 19:48:30 GMT -5
I'm guessing it depends on what stuff you're playing and if your amp gives you touch sensitivity and responds to the harder you hit the strings, the louder it gets too.
If you like your tone and have your amp EQ set up the way you want, you have no reason to roll back your tone knob---unless certain songs call for changing tone or if you're taking your volume down in a band setting so as not to drown someone else out.
But what do I know, I'm just a bedroom player, I don't gig or anything. I do record stuff on an 8 track for fun, though, so that's why I have an interest in tones for the guitar.
One of the raspiest coolest sounding overdrive I had was done thru a small shitty Yamaha practice amp, a Boss overdrive pedal and a Strat with the single coil pick ups. And then it was recorded with some shitty dynamic mics and mixed with a really cheap mixer from Radio Shack! It was not a heavy overdriven sound but it certainly did have a certain tonal raspy quality I liked. I no longer have that Strat but the only way to approximate that is by messing with the tone and volume knobs on my Les Paul.
And hell, if you crank it loud enough, nobody can hear or give a damn thing about your tone anyway, lol...unless you're a guitar geek, though.
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Nov 21, 2020 10:12:49 GMT -5
Volume and tone knobs can be really valuable tools. If you're using a hollow/semi-hollowbody with loud stage volume, you have to roll back the volume a bit to fend of feedback issues. I generally run mine at about 80% on stage all the time (when using hollow bodies). Even with hot humbuckers, feedback can be an issue in a loud room, and in those cases, rolling the tone back to about 50/70% can take care of the problem without a huge difference to the tone. Super easy fix to a common, annoying problem. Also, the volume knob can affect the amount of drive you're getting out of the amp, not just the level, so if you want a little less dirt, under the vocal parts for example, you can roll back the volume a bit, then dial it back up for the leads. It can be more effective, convenient, and versatile than pedals in that sense. So there is something to be said for cranking everything and going full-bore all the time, but if you're really in tune with your rig and your band mates and the room, everything matters, including the vol & tone knobs. It is very possible to get a really dirty, distorted tone and still get the string separation we're talking about. A guy like J. Mascis is a good example (like Neil at times, but different). I personally generally run a little bit dirty all the time using the amp's overdrive, never clean. It's clean enough so the country-ish parts sound sorta like Uncle Tupelo - not clean, not distorted. Then I have an overdrive when I need a good distorted sound on top of that. Then I have a second distortion for when I occasionally need real dirt - punk/metalish parts. And a nice boost with a drive knob for leads. But unlike Paul, I don't have a second guitarist, so it's a whole different dynamic. I need sustain and ringing to help fill in the sound. (a more aggressive bass tone and parts as well). It seems like Paul almost approaches it as percussive in that sense.
Take a record like Tim, and I think his approach to tone might be a part of the problem. Without someone like Bob countering that tone with something dirtier and more filling, it comes off as restrained. Take Bastards of Young. Bob's guitar on SNL makes the song what it should be, but the album version is largely lacking that (at least in the mix/performance). Paul's tone works great as a second guitar, but it needs that lead to fill it out. He doesn't play that way at all PTMM and the guitars are much more full.
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Post by raccoon on Nov 21, 2020 11:13:47 GMT -5
Volume and tone knobs can be really valuable tools. If you're using a hollow/semi-hollowbody with loud stage volume, you have to roll back the volume a bit to fend of feedback issues. I generally run mine at about 80% on stage all the time (when using hollow bodies). Even with hot humbuckers, feedback can be an issue in a loud room, and in those cases, rolling the tone back to about 50/70% can take care of the problem without a huge difference to the tone. Super easy fix to a common, annoying problem. Also, the volume knob can affect the amount of drive you're getting out of the amp, not just the level, so if you want a little less dirt, under the vocal parts for example, you can roll back the volume a bit, then dial it back up for the leads. It can be more effective, convenient, and versatile than pedals in that sense. So there is something to be said for cranking everything and going full-bore all the time, but if you're really in tune with your rig and your band mates and the room, everything matters, including the vol & tone knobs. It is very possible to get a really dirty, distorted tone and still get the string separation we're talking about. A guy like J. Mascis is a good example (like Neil at times, but different). I personally generally run a little bit dirty all the time using the amp's overdrive, never clean. It's clean enough so the country-ish parts sound sorta like Uncle Tupelo - not clean, not distorted. Then I have an overdrive when I need a good distorted sound on top of that. Then I have a second distortion for when I occasionally need real dirt - punk/metalish parts. And a nice boost with a drive knob for leads. But unlike Paul, I don't have a second guitarist, so it's a whole different dynamic. I need sustain and ringing to help fill in the sound. (a more aggressive bass tone and parts as well). It seems like Paul almost approaches it as percussive in that sense. Take a record like Tim, and I think his approach to tone might be a part of the problem. Without someone like Bob countering that tone with something dirtier and more filling, it comes off as restrained. Take Bastards of Young. Bob's guitar on SNL makes the song what it should be, but the album version is largely lacking that (at least in the mix/performance). Paul's tone works great as a second guitar, but it needs that lead to fill it out. He doesn't play that way at all PTMM and the guitars are much more full.
What an awesome post. I appreciate the previous posts, too. I am used to hearing writers talk shop but it is fascinating hearing you guys on guitars. I learned something. The insight into the recording of TIM is also cool. Now if you can only teach me how to play that awesome country solo in 'Dead Flowers'! I doubt even Mick Taylor could! My playing is just that poor.
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 21, 2020 18:14:26 GMT -5
Thanks for your insights, Jer...I was wondering if/when you were going to post, since I know you're a gigging musician. And yeah, boost pedals are good for lead work without having to fiddle with volume knobs on the axe or the amp. Paul is definitely a good rhythm guy. Found this nugget in the interview archives: EP: You've always fluctuated between writing very rambunctious numbers a nd quiet, introspective songs. When you sit down to write, are you more apt now to sit down at the piano or pick up your guitar?
PW: Who's in the house kind of dictates that. When no one's home, I can strap on the guitar, but more often than not, it's the piano. I think that comes from, when I'm by myself, I sit down to write a melody. When I have a drummer and a bass player, I instinctively want to write a rhythm. paulwesterberg.proboards.com/thread/7060/pw-mats-articles?page=2And I think it was curmudgeon in the EVH thread talking about Van Halen's great rhythm work. He had to be; as a power trio, Eddie had to fill in the gaps as it was just him for the voicings. And you're right, sustain comes into it as well. At some point, you can't/shouldn't cram as many notes in as possible---I think there is something to be said for allowing the music to "breathe" a little. That's where sustain, letting things ring out a little among the little fills and licks helps. racoon, keep at it, keep working at the lead for that song. Love the clean tone on Keith's guitar here on Dead Flowers: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oPInSfh6H4and one of my fave Stones tune, with great interplay between Mick and Keith. Keith has a capo on like the 7th fret. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oPInSfh6H4
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 24, 2020 13:05:09 GMT -5
This is a cool gear breakdown over at Jodi's site: paulwesterberg.net/2013/09/18/the-guitar-geek-breaks-down-the-chicago-gear/interesting amp stuff for Paul, it seems like he was using a Fender thru a Marshall cab based on these photos?? Fender is the "American" tone and sound and Marshall is the classic "British" tone and sounds, so interesting mix. That ES-335 is a nice all around guitar for whatever style you want to play, I feel. I saw some vids where Alex Chilton was playing one. I was also playing his First Act Signature with the P90 in it. I checked and it's listed as an Alnico 5 pick up, so it's stronger output and brighter than the 2-4's. But researching tone comparisons between them , to include the alnico 8 magnets, the differences seem to me to be subtle between 5 and 8. To my ears, the Alnico 5 is slightly brighter than the 2-4s.
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Nov 25, 2020 8:12:33 GMT -5
Interesting article. Lots of speculation but it makes sense. The "British" part of the Marshall sound comes more from the head than the cab, so if he's running a brown-face Super amp (probably like this) into a Marshall cab, which is what they're speculating, he's still getting that "American" tone, just though more (probably different) speakers. Fender amps are generally pretty loud, but they ain't Marshall cabs, and there is no substitute for the way a 4x12 sounds on stage vs a 1x12 or 2x12. He could be bypassing the Fender speakers altogether or using both for a 6x12. It doesn't appear that the Fender has a mic on it, so if that's the case, it's either not being used as a cab, or it's just for stage-volume, but it's certainly not going out to the room. That's not to say the cab doesn't have any affect on the tone. Celestion speakers (in Marshall's) are most-certainly part of that British tone, and Fender amps come with Fender speakers (or some other version of a Fender speaker), but the head and tubes are where the real meat of the tone is.
It's also possible that the Fender is completely separate from the 4x12 cab and there's another head, maybe behind the amp, pushing the 4x12. That 4x12 is micd so it is going out to the room. They mention a Soldano pushing a different cab (not pictured?) so that could be running as a full-stack. Not sure about these guys, but most bands who play shows this size have duplicate rigs on stage, a second of each amp as a safety, so that could play into the whole thing too. Who knows? Not us based on what we see. Interesting about Minehan paying a Hiwatt stack with a Matchless head "also stacked on there." Is that in addition to a Hiwatt head or in-place of a Hiwatt head, and just the cabs were Hiwatt? It look like there's a Hiwatt head under/behind Paul's hand in the pic where he's rolling up his sleeve. Maybe Dave is running 1 cab with the Hiwatt and one with the Matchless, which would sound amazing.
I have a Matchless head that is probably my most favorite piece of gear I've ever owned and I've used it every night since I got it. It sounds amazing, especially through a 4x12 (tho I usually run it through a 2x12 due to logistics). I saw them 3 times on the longer tour and never noticed that he had a Matchless, so my guess is he didn't use it on the longer run that next Spring, though it's possible I just missed it. I usually remember seeing a Matchless though, they aren't all that common.
Good stuff. Geeking out over gear is a blast.
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Post by firespirit on Nov 25, 2020 22:36:06 GMT -5
Minehan actually plays Hi-Tone amps. Hi-Tone is an American boutique amp company that tries to recreate the classic sounds of 60s and 70s Hiwatt Amps.
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Nov 26, 2020 11:58:05 GMT -5
Minehan actually plays Hi-Tone amps. Hi-Tone is an American boutique amp company that tries to recreate the classic sounds of 60s and 70s Hiwatt Amps. Aah - Good catch!
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 26, 2020 15:39:05 GMT -5
Jer, thanks for filling in some gaps on running your gear on stage. I noticed too Paul's Fender/Marshall "stack" wasn't mic'ed up in those pics. Is it possible they run something out the back into the PA?
Matchless---oh man. I had an opportunity to get a Matchless amp at cost and I had to bypass it. Don't mean to name drop, but it was Warren Zevon's son, Jordan, who was the hook up. Jordan used to work for them and still had his friends there at Matchless. I had won his dad's Steinberger guitar at an auction almost what, 18 years ago or so? Anyway, Jordan offered to get one for me since he had to ship the guitar out to me here on the east coast. Might as well do a bundle. But I had spent a fortune already on the guitar.
Would love to get a Matchless amp. But for now, I guess I'm doing small amps since the neighbors on either side will start complaining if I crank the master volume on the Carvin past 2 , lol...
Anyway, back to Paul's guitar gear and stuff. It has been posted before, but I figure I'd post it again about his First Act signature axe. And for $100, it wasn't such a bad guitar. I still need to get my intonation on it adjusted though and maybe swap out the tuning pegs.
Westerberg and First Act got together to design a signature rock guitar, the PW580. Its a killer electric with a rock and roll soul. Westerberg describes it as "lean, clean, and mean, just like rock n roll ought to be."
The story goes that Westerberg was on tour somewhere in the middle of America, and he stopped into a mass retailer to buy shaving cream, and bought one of our crimson ME501 electric guitars on impulse, right off the shelf. He debuted the guitar onstage that night, and quickly brought it into heavy onstage rotation for the rest of the tour.
When we heard about it, we invited Westerberg to design a guitar with us. So we put our heads together and came up with the PW580; it's a killer electric with a rock and roll soul.
Westerberg describes his vision for the PW580: "something not too heavy, that I could play quietly or full volume. It has a single pickup, and it sort of snarls. It's lean, clean, and mean, and it doesn't have that big, overdriven, fuzzy sound. You can get that with an amp, but the guitar itself doesn't put it out, and that's what I was looking for. There's a definite old-school thing, it belongs in a garage. It probably sounds best in a garage playing surf music or something like that. "
Specifications: NECK - Profile: C shape; Wood: Maple; Head stock: First Act Pompadour with white binding. FRETBOARD - Wood: Rosewood; Inlays: Dot Inlay, binding: White
BODY - Shape: Kei; Wood: Solid poplar; Binding: White
HARDWARE - Color: Chrome; Machine Heads: Die-cast sealed tuners, configured 3+3; Pickguard: Custom plaid print; Knobs: White speed dials ELECTRONICS - Pickups: Alnico 5 magnet bridge pickup with First Act proprietary pickup cover; Controls: 1 volume, 1 tone.
FINISH - Body: Gloss black; Neck: Natural satin Other: Signature truss rod cover
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Nov 27, 2020 18:57:42 GMT -5
Jer, thanks for filling in some gaps on running your gear on stage. I noticed too Paul's Fender/Marshall "stack" wasn't mic'ed up in those pics. Is it possible they run something out the back into the PA?
It's always possible - lot of bands do that. Check out the Rick Nielsen rig rundown for a great example (and a great episode). I love the story from "Hail Hail Rock and Roll" where Keith begs Chuck to use a better amp, but Chuck refuses, so Keith mics and old Fender down in the basement that goes out to the house and to tape.
There might be a mic on that Marshall in that pic, and he references an amp between that stack and the drums, so that might be micd as well. Paul just doesn't strike me as a guy who would go to that level of complexity when it comes to stage vs FOH but not like I really know.
Wow great story! I got a great deal on mine (a relative knew the sore owner) but I don't think it has that kind of lineage. They're beautiful amps. Mine is a `98 (Sampson era) Chieftain head. It burns hot and I need to replace the tubes about every year and a half when we're busy (not this year), but man, that tone. I also bought a Matchless combo once, but sold it a year later because it was too goddamn heavy. I couldn't even get it down the stairs by myself (with the road case). Sounded killer, used it on a record, but God I was glad to get rid of it. Then I found a guy locally selling a combo minus the chassis on Craig's List so I got into that for cheap, and it's easy to lug around. I even hooked up the light in it to a spliced up iPhone cable so the logo would light up like it would if had the chassis in place. Sounds killer and even matches the head. The speakers alone are worth about what I paid for the cab. I've never played one. Curious how it holds intonation and tuning, and if it can take a beating. One thing I've learned is that sound and playability are only a part of what makes a good guitar. If it goes out of whack on stage when it's humid or dry, hot or cold, or just getting beaten on during a rowdy set, it doesn't really matter how it plays or sounds. Recording is a whole different thing, where you can tune and adjust and deal with those things. That's why I keep my LP JR (and several others), but never play them live.
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 28, 2020 12:02:16 GMT -5
Jer, thanks sharing your knowledge about stage gear, I'm learning some stuff here too.
man, my GAS is kicking in (Gear Acquisition Syndrome, for you non guitarists)...now I'm jonesing to check out the Matchless amps. Too bad there are no dealers in my area. But really, as I'm just a spare bedroom player, and not a gigging musician, there's no reason for me to have such a powerful amp. And yeah, I remember that scene where Chuck was arguing about "this is how Chuck Berry sounds" and didn't want anyone messing with his amp!
I took a look at some specs for the Chieftain, it's got the EL34 power tubes? Interesting. I've got EL84's in my Carvin (but the damn thing has clipping diodes that really muffles and muddies the OD channel if you saturate it past 7). Do you run fans in the back to keep your Matchless tubes cooled down or something?
And the weight of these amps, my god! I sometimes wonder if solid states are the way to go, as much as I love tube amps. The good solid states seem capable of capturing or simulating the tones from tubes. But nothing like the real thing, though.
You're definitely right about climate for guitars. Since the PW Signature model didn't come with a case, I've either kept it on the guitar stand or in a gig bag. And while I have a humidifier, I'm sure that seasonal changes have affected the thing and intonation some. At least the frets aren't popping out. But yeah, I have no idea how the axe would hold up to touring. I kind of figured that changing out the tuning pegs would be a start. For $100, First Act had to go cheap on something.
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Post by FreeRider on Aug 25, 2021 12:36:55 GMT -5
Too lazy to search and find the First Act guitar thread, but I checked some sites and see that Paul's limited produced signature guitar can run anywhere from $200-$300+ range. One outlier I saw was set at $600!
That's crazy, no way would I spend that kind of money on that when you could get a Les Paul or Fender or something for that price. I wonder if Paul is still buying guitars these days, if so, which ones? As noted above thread, he likes that cleaner, single coil, P90 sound, it seems, not the heavy humbucker sustain and overdrive sound.
Oh, and I just spent $350 getting my '73 LP Black Beauty fixed up. Previous owner was a Neil Young fan it had a Bigsby on it but the damn thing just won't stay in tune! Sad to say, it sounded nothing like Neil at all in my hands, ha ha....As fun as it was for vibrato, I finally had to have the Bigsby removed (turns out it was the wrong model too, according to my guitar guy!), re-fretted the thing, and add in a new tune-o-matic bridge.
Now the thing sounds great, the intonation is finally good. While it's vintage, it's got no real collectible value per my guitar guy. He said it's had too much stuff done to it, missing the original hardware (the originals are gold plated, this one has chrome), but it has the classic 70's era humbuckers. the value is that it's a player's guitar, not a collectible.
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Post by con on Aug 27, 2021 9:05:45 GMT -5
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Post by FreeRider on Aug 28, 2021 10:02:59 GMT -5
wow, did you see the price drop though? Asked for $500! You can get some good electrics for under $500. Since I'm no longer working now, I treated myself last year to a Gretsch for $499, it's a bargain "cheap" guitar (could probably upgrade the tuning pegs and the pots) but the humbuckers are fine by my ears! And the body aesthetics look great too.
I like my PW signature guitar, don't play it much, but it's a just a fun fanboy thing to have. And the best part is that it was so cheap, in that $100 range!
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nyc1lkg
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Post by nyc1lkg on Aug 30, 2021 15:52:51 GMT -5
wow, did you see the price drop though? Asked for $500! You can get some good electrics for under $500. Since I'm no longer working now, I treated myself last year to a Gretsch for $499, it's a bargain "cheap" guitar (could probably upgrade the tuning pegs and the pots) but the humbuckers are fine by my ears! And the body aesthetics look great too. I like my PW signature guitar, don't play it much, but it's a just a fun fanboy thing to have. And the best part is that it was so cheap, in that $100 range! I have one of these and would never let go of it.
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Post by FreeRider on Sept 2, 2021 16:16:30 GMT -5
The guitar can fetch $300+, that's not bad if you're into collectibles. But let's see how much it appreciates with more time. I mean, a limited production on this guitar endorsed by Paul? It'll be a rare guitar, especially since First Act is out of business, I think, or was acquired by some other business.
It's a fun guitar to have but certainly not my go-to guitar. It could probably use some upgrade in the hardware (I'd leave the alnico 5 pick up alone), but I'd have to get it looked at by a guitar repair tech and get an assessment on what to do and how much I'd want to sink into it. I don't think I get much slippage but I'd probably look to upgrade the tuning pegs.
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