nyc1lkg
First Class Scout
Posts: 204
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Post by nyc1lkg on Nov 2, 2020 16:20:23 GMT -5
When asked who my favorite guitarist is, I always land on PW. His hooks, riffs and leads are always right to my ears. Can anyone here who actually knows a thing or three about guitar playing shed some light on what kind of player Paul is or what it might be about his unique style that sets him apart?
Thanks.
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 2, 2020 17:36:47 GMT -5
I think he's a good rhythm guitarist and decent enough lead. I think he said when he was younger he did the usual stuff, practiced his scales and all but realized he wasn't going to be a hot shot gun slinging lead guitar guy. So he focused more on the songwriting.
But! That doesn't mean he isn't an inventive guitar player. He's a guitarist/composer---the guitar just happens to be his tool of choice. Plus, he uses open tunings. What that means is, his guitar is tuned to a chord, so when you strum all the strings, it plays a chord. Like Keith Richards, Paul has found sound tasty riffs from the open tunings....it breaks you out of the rut of having to come up with stuff in the standard guitar tuning, the voicings are just different in open tuning. You can hear droning strings and the like, it really provides a lot of color to the sound.
And it's always funny how he and the Mats came off as if they were just garage guys, didn't know anything about music. Bull! Paul definitely knew what he was doing music wise, in how he arranges his songs. I believe there was in interview during the Folker release, he started talking about how the songs were in a different key and would cycle back to the original key, trying to make it very orchestral. So don't be fooled---he knows music; maybe not classroom theory and composition, but he knows what he's doing musically.
He's adding harmonies behind simple melody lines. For example, he talked once about how the Beatles would use all these chords to follow the melody versus a typical folk song, let's say, which has static chords with the melody going over the chord being played. By harmonies, I mean little chord progressions behind the melody. Even Donald Fagen of Steely Dan said harmonies behind a simple melody will create some really interesting movement and sound behind it, so that's why he uses a lot of jazz type chordings.
I can hear some songs where he uses chromatics, which is going down musically a half step or up a half step in increments. I think of "Valentine" where he does that as the entry way to the guitar solo.
To me, he's a great songwriter and it comes thru in his playing. That's what makes his guitar playing really interesting to hear.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Nov 2, 2020 18:35:20 GMT -5
Really good points from FreeRider.
The open-tuning thing is pretty relevant, and maybe even a little more common than you'd think, but Paul definitively embraced it and took it in some new and interesting directions. Answering Machine and Left of the Dial come to mind. Just using that as a tool to mix up your songwriting or get through some writer's block makes you a better guitarist in itself as it forces you to learn new fingerings and patterns.
I think he surprised some people with his leads on PTMM too. There's a few words about it in the new booklet. A guy can't go a long time of playing primarily rhythm guitar without acquiring some lead-chops too. Keith can play a wicked lead when he wants.
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nyc1lkg
First Class Scout
Posts: 204
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Post by nyc1lkg on Nov 6, 2020 12:38:14 GMT -5
Thank you FreeRider and Jer for sharing your insights. Much appreciated.
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Post by anarkissed on Nov 6, 2020 14:30:20 GMT -5
He's frustrating...I can't play any of his songs because I have no idea what he is doing...
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 6, 2020 19:28:40 GMT -5
He's frustrating...I can't play any of his songs because I have no idea what he is doing... Join the club  |
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Post by raccoon on Nov 6, 2020 20:53:23 GMT -5
He's frustrating...I can't play any of his songs because I have no idea what he is doing... Join the club He always seems to find the perfect tone. I can't play any of his songs because I have no idea what I'm doing.  |
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Post by curmudgeonman on Nov 7, 2020 11:59:52 GMT -5
He's frustrating...I can't play any of his songs because I have no idea what he is doing... I agree.
I can figure out and play accurately plenty of Stones, Who, some Beatles songs. REM stuff is easy to play. Neil Young, etc.
Replacement's songs are tough. Open tunings are the culprit in some cases, but there are songs, it seems their guitars are so out of wack, can't really duplicate the chords or anything.
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Post by anarkissed on Nov 8, 2020 0:34:57 GMT -5
And to be honest, particularly if we add in Bob's playing, I think there were some lucky accidents that even they couldn't recreate...
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 8, 2020 9:35:55 GMT -5
Thanks to some of the knowledgeable folks here, some really good work has been done in the tabs sections, seems really close to some songs. but then you see Paul playing and the fingerings are very different! You hear some things from Paul's guitar that are different, but it was a great try by the posters to tab out some stuff.
So yeah, frustrating that we can't quite replicate what Paul is doing, which is a shame. The songs live longer if people can play the songs and sound the right way. Like I've always been tempted to try an open mic night and do a few of his tunes just to keep his music alive. They're great songs, but if something is off, or missing, it really does change the feeling/sound of the tune.
I figure I could take a wild stab at "High Time", "No Place for You", "Once Around the Weekend", and "Let the Bad Times Roll".....not that I have much of a singing voice, but, hell, if you're playing to a sawdust and vomit crowd, they won't be paying attention anyway.
You have three songs or ten minutes to do your thing. What Mats/Paul solo songs would you do for an open mic nite?
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Post by curmudgeonman on Nov 8, 2020 18:07:39 GMT -5
So yeah, frustrating that we can't quite replicate what Paul is doing, which is a shame. The songs live longer if people can play the songs and sound the right way. Like I've always been tempted to try an open mic night and do a few of his tunes just to keep his music alive. They're great songs, but if something is off, or missing, it really does change the feeling/sound of the tune. Yeah, playing standard and bar chord for a lot of the songs just doesn't cut it.
Reminds me of the guitar lesson videos from Andy Partridge (XTC). He will mutate chords, change a note here and there, just enough to make it sound "exotic", sound like XTC chords.
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nyc1lkg
First Class Scout
Posts: 204
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Post by nyc1lkg on Nov 8, 2020 18:36:04 GMT -5
Thanks to some of the knowledgeable folks here, some really good work has been done in the tabs sections, seems really close to some songs. but then you see Paul playing and the fingerings are very different! You hear some things from Paul's guitar that are different, but it was a great try by the posters to tab out some stuff. So yeah, frustrating that we can't quite replicate what Paul is doing, which is a shame. The songs live longer if people can play the songs and sound the right way. Like I've always been tempted to try an open mic night and do a few of his tunes just to keep his music alive. They're great songs, but if something is off, or missing, it really does change the feeling/sound of the tune. I figure I could take a wild stab at "High Time", "No Place for You", "Once Around the Weekend", and "Let the Bad Times Roll".....not that I have much of a singing voice, but, hell, if you're playing to a sawdust and vomit crowd, they won't be paying attention anyway. You have three songs or ten minutes to do your thing. What Mats/Paul solo songs would you do for an open mic nite? If I could, I'd love to do If Only You Were Lonely, Can't Hardly Wait and Waiting for Somebody. What the hell!! |
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Post by raccoon on Nov 8, 2020 19:24:56 GMT -5
Ten minutes? I would rip through Customer, Rattlesnake, Shut Up, and Otto and still have time to tease 'I'm 18'while writhing on the stage.
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 8, 2020 20:37:20 GMT -5
]If I could, I'd love to do If Only You Were Lonely, Can't Hardly Wait and Waiting for Somebody. What the hell!! Good picks. Especially If Only You Were Lonely, that'd be a good one to do. I'd hope someone would ask you later what songs you did. Then you could proudly extol the genius of the Mats and Paul's songwriting to that person. |
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 8, 2020 20:38:49 GMT -5
Ten minutes? I would rip through Customer, Rattlesnake, Shut Up, and Otto and still have time to tease 'I'm 18'while writhing on the stage. Nothing like a medley! |
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 8, 2020 20:42:54 GMT -5
Yeah, playing standard and bar chord for a lot of the songs just doesn't cut it.Reminds me of the guitar lesson videos from Andy Partridge (XTC). He will mutate chords, change a note here and there, just enough to make it sound "exotic", sound like XTC chords. You know, sometimes, they don't use the full chord, playing only play a partial chord, or are playing diads that's maybe the root note of the chord and another note. It's tough to figure it out...these guys have their tricks and little short cuts on the fret board |
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Post by curmudgeonman on Nov 9, 2020 10:25:46 GMT -5
You know, sometimes, they don't use the full chord, playing only play a partial chord, or are playing diads that's maybe the root note of the chord and another note. It's tough to figure it out...these guys have their tricks and little short cuts on the fret board Oh, believe me, I know about shortcuts, I use them myself when I'm lazy and don't want to play all of the strings, especially with bar chords.
My point with Partridge is that he intentionally changes a note in a chord to make it sound a little different, his word "exotic". Not a minor or seventh chord, but something different. He is more interested in "shaping" chords to give his songwriting a bit more individuality, and who know, maybe Westerberg has done the same.
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 10, 2020 8:40:57 GMT -5
Hmm, interesting. I dunno what more AP could be doing with his chord "shaping". Maybe chord stacking? Like the Beatles did with some chords where it's ambiguous as to what the hell to call it. Like that opening chord for "Hard Day's Night".
Or maybe AP is adding in 9ths or something, like how Steely Dan would use these sharp 7ths and 9ths? It's fascinating to me how some of these musicians create these chord voicings. I read where Donald Fagen said that he and Walter Becker, when they were in college, would listen to some Laura Nyro album over and over. And odd choice, I thought, given the late 60's there was so much stuff you'd think they'd be listening to.
But no. They heard something that appealed to them in Laura's compositions. Fagen said that they heard the bass adding in the 4th of the chord to major chords and that fascinated them. I also read that those guys loved using a G over a D chord and that became a favorite guitar/piano chord voicing of theirs. And that is basically adding in the 4th over a D major triad.
I'm guessing AP and PW, whether they know it or not, are doing something similar with chord voicings and fingerings. But hey, that's why these guys are pros. They're hearing and playing shit music theory-wise that is going right over my head!
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 11, 2020 9:54:20 GMT -5
I'm not real well versed in music theory stuff, I'll have to dig out my old Music theory 101 text book, but I just found this vid on the "mu chord" that Steely Dan liked to use...basically, an added 9th. So, for anyone interested in a little theory and explanation of it, and how it may apply to whatever PW is maybe (un)knowingly doing as well: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jmREPDEU5Q |
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Post by FreeRider on Nov 15, 2020 16:38:26 GMT -5
Interesting stuff in this interview with him, he touches upon guitar influences, his playing, songwriting stuff and how it pertains to his guitar playing. alanpaul.net/2011/09/a-classic-interview-from-my-archives-paul-westerberg/thought this was insightful, this excerpt: GW: You use different tones to create a full guitar sound yourself. Do you utilize different amps to do that?
WESTERBERG: No. Years of performing have taught me to control things from the axe. I’ll just roll
off the high end or play with the volume at two or three. I’m not an effects person and I don’t have an arsenal of amps at my disposal, but I am picky about my sound. I don’t like sustain and I don’t like a lot of compression. I prefer a sound that’s right in between dirty and clean and doesn’t have that 10-second sustain when you hit one chord. I’m pretty much lost when the tone gets over-saturated and there’s no distinguishing between one chord and the next. You need to be able to hear me change chords. But I just keep it simple—amp, guitar. Besides, I hate music stores—I never go into them.
GW: Why do you hate music stores so much?
WESTERBERG: They’re just jam packed with guys who don’t have it, guys who spend their lives learning how to play the instrument but don’t have anything that people want: no personality or life about them. I see a lot of bitterness in music stores and I always have. I remember trying to buy a saxophone at the band instrument store and even that place had a total loser vibe. The guy picks up the horn and blows this Coltrane-esque run with me, who can’t play at all, looking for help and getting really pissed. I was like, “Fuck you. I’ll go find one at a garage sale and teach myself.” And I did. |
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