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Post by teddinard on Mar 26, 2018 20:58:50 GMT -5
Strange to think of someone being a Westerberg fan,but not care for Bobby D. I agree. I have always said, even back in college in the 80s when I was first a Mats fan, that I did not trust one's musical instincts if they had a dislike for Dylan. I can live with that. But I know a lot of music lovers who don't like him. Again, not for the mundane, trivial reason of disliking his voice. I hear extravagant praise for songs like "Tangled Up in Blue" and just shrug. I must admit I felt a little uneasy When she bent down to tie the laces Of my shoe... I mean, come on. Every single word in that is wrong. "I must admit"? WFT? "A little uneasy"? It's just forced, pointless eccentricity. When I was a kid, I was very impressed by stuff like that. I loved Bob Dylan when I was about fourteen. You know, I figured it doesn't make much sense, so it must be deep, right? Um, no. I suppose at least shoe rhymes with blue. I could keep up the rant but I'm not going to convince anybody, so I'll stop. There are plenty of people I've met with untrustworthy instincts who agree with me.
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Post by anarkissed on Mar 26, 2018 21:05:03 GMT -5
"You make want to vomit/And I promise/I want you 'til the day I die"...Everybody has some clumkers...
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Post by teddinard on Mar 26, 2018 21:15:08 GMT -5
"You make want to vomit/And I promise/I want you 'til the day I die"...Everybody has some clumkers... I actually kind of like that!
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Post by raccoon on Mar 27, 2018 12:12:19 GMT -5
I must admit I felt a little uneasy When she bent down to tie the laces Of my shoe...
What exactly is 'pointless, forced, or eccentric' about this lyric?
'Don't criticize what you can't understand...'
All of the people can't be right all of the time
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 28, 2018 13:15:42 GMT -5
Well, it may be trivial, but I cannot listen to Dylan's voice now or in the past 15 years because his voice is now reduced to a raspy, nasally growl.
So is Dylan over rated? As for the superiority thing, is that coming from him, the artist? Or is that more coming from his fans and reviewers praising him and suggesting he's some sort of savior? Dylan himself has commented that he doesn't know what to tell anyone who reads all these things into his lyrics. He has said basically that he just writes the songs. If it disturbs you or moves you in some way, then that's your trip, he said, I just put the songs out there.
So he's very much in the artists' school of thought in that he's not willing to reveal much about the origins or meanings of his songs. He'd much rather let the listener decides what it all means. Not all songs or lyrics have a real meaning....
Even Paul said something like "Here Comes a Regular" was really inspired by or about the seasonal change, the lawn, yard work! The bit about the drinking stuff was really a backdrop story for the thing that really inspired him: the changing of the seasons and the onset of fall. So for Paul, it wasn't really about drinking.
And for the record, I like Tangled Up In Blue! What it means? I have no idea what the story means, but I do like the flow and the rhymes and the imagery I get from it. I like the feeling it evokes....
But all the while I was alone The past was close behind I seen a lot of women But she never escaped my mind And I just grew Tangled up in blue
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Frances
Second Class Scout
Posts: 35
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Post by Frances on Mar 28, 2018 19:47:58 GMT -5
I never really thought about it like that before but I think I see what teddinard is talking about. I admit I kind of liked ¨Tangled Up in Blue” before today. But I just played it again and felt nothing. Even the melody was disappointing. It sounds like he´s telling a story that someone else told him. The words seem entirely unconnected to any genuine feeling or concrete experience.
Had I not been playing the´Mats right before I probably wouldn´t have minded but the contrast is just so stark. Take something as simple as ¨Terri, Who You Gonna Marry?¨ There is an electric spark in Paul´s writing that you just don’t get with Dylan. At least I think so. A clarity, an economy. (I know my writing is the total opposite of that right now -- the irony does not escape me -- and it´s probably why I admire it so much in others.)
Damn, I´m bad at this ¨criticism¨ thing. With practice...
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Post by dee on Apr 4, 2018 4:17:44 GMT -5
Dylan/Westerberg voice change comparison...
Everything up to and including Dylan's Desire album the voice was there,but after the Rolling Thunder tour his voice became more high pitched & nasal.From 'Street Legal' through 'Down In The Groove'('78 - '88) Dylan sings in that register. Then around Oh Mercy he seemed to find the right rasp or growl and has made it really work well for him in the studio.His phrasing has always been amazing.
Westerberg's voice seemed to get higher after PTMM and now seems lower with less range.Though not as drastic a change as Dylan's voice.There are some bum notes that make it onto songs now,like 'Finally Here Once' and 'Hands Together'. It doesn't sink the song,and maybe it can't be fixed if he plays and does vocals at the same time,but it does grate a bit.The fact that he has the means to put out songs sung in tune does make it a disservice to the songs when he doesn't.The voice cracking is a PW trademark,singing off key is not.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Apr 4, 2018 7:08:37 GMT -5
....There are some bum notes that make it onto songs now,like 'Finally Here Once' and 'Hands Together'. It doesn't sink the song,and maybe it can't be fixed if he plays and does vocals at the same time,but it does grate a bit.The fact that he has the means to put out songs sung in tune does make it a disservice to the songs when he doesn't.The voice cracking is a PW trademark,singing off key is not. It can be fixed by doing a couple takes and comping lines/words together to get a good, in-tune vocal track, or even doing it 3-5 times and get a single take that is mostly pretty good. Like you said, a crack or even an out-of-tune howl or something can work in some songs, but a flat, first-take vocal is a detriment. Same goes for all the other tracks. It's a big part of why the basement stuff loses my attention pretty quickly.
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Post by BronxTeacher on Apr 4, 2018 13:38:39 GMT -5
I agree. I have always said, even back in college in the 80s when I was first a Mats fan, that I did not trust one's musical instincts if they had a dislike for Dylan. I hear extravagant praise for songs like "Tangled Up in Blue" and just shrug. I must admit I felt a little uneasy When she bent down to tie the laces Of my shoe... I mean, come on. Every single word in that is wrong. "I must admit"? WFT? "A little uneasy"? It's just forced, pointless eccentricity I'm in the "Dylan is a genius" camp. There's no one quite like him. But I get why some people don't like him, and I've given up judging people about it or trying to change their opinion. To each his or her own. But I like the line you criticize, and I'm wondering if you get the point of what he's saying. The speaker thinks she's going to go down on him, and maybe the woman is intimating that, but no, she ties his shoe instead. It's funny. The song's multiple and shifting points of view have always fascinated me, too. It's like a cubist painting where you can see the whole story broken down into individual parts. The disjointment of the perspective reflects the disjointed love affair described in the song, an affair that may involve another person and that seems to be broken, reignited, and broken again over a long period of time. I could go on... I can see the "I must admit" part is just filler to fit the melody and the line, but I can't fault Bob for that. All songwriters do it. How many times has PW pulled out the "there ain't no doubt" line, even on an otherwise great song like "Let's Not Belong Together," in order to get to the next line?
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Post by Hagbard on Apr 4, 2018 19:02:13 GMT -5
Me, personally I love Dylan. I pretty much agree with Steve Earle who said something along the lines of, “When it comes to songwriters, there’s two categories, there’s Bob Dylan and then everyone else.” I get he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but if you can find a way in, his stuff is so vast and so deep, there’s tons to explore. Pretty cool clip below analysing Tangled Up In Blue. youtu.be/y4VwQXoyodk
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Post by teddinard on Apr 5, 2018 7:21:09 GMT -5
...
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Post by anarkissed on Apr 5, 2018 15:51:07 GMT -5
I wouldn't want this discussion to conclude leaving the impression that all of Dylan's work is made up of these rambling, eleven-minute epics with difficult to understand surrealistic lyrics and confusing symbolism. Some of them are still eleven-minute epics, but songs like "Tangled Up In Blue" and "Hurricane" are much more straightforward stories. A lot of his earlier work, like "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright", "It Ain't Me Babe" and "Love Minus Zero" are pretty much concise pop. And I think people always overlook things like "Outlaw Blues" and "From A Buick 6" that are just gutbucket rock and blues...
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Post by raccoon on Apr 5, 2018 16:10:15 GMT -5
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Post by Veets on Apr 5, 2018 20:00:48 GMT -5
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Post by raccoon on Nov 25, 2020 11:39:42 GMT -5
Anybody ever hear Paul's reinvention of the Mats reinvention of 'LARS'? I have only heard it from his 2002 show at Irving Plaza. Same melody but entitled 'Whatever Happened to Paul?'. This time with a complete set of alternate lyrics which a user here attempted to decipher in 2007:
Once upon a time, they all went online, stood in line And I saved their lives A kiss and hug for everyone, a can of Coke, a little jug Who saves mine? The guitar boys shoot me down, follow me here and follow me 'round I don't know if I can stand it all Who's takin' that kind of call (?) I guess you never knowed 'em/him at all
Whatever happened to Paul? You never knew him at all I'm a cinder burning hot Inspection your weapon was shot (??) You never knew me at all Whatever happened to Paul?
Close my eyes in a town with a "B" Went to sleep till a quarter till three I phone it won't came (??) One more cause/calls (??) The last one made me fight and say I got up and heaved my fuckin guts out The woman who called didn't have nothing to talk about Now I'm going, baby the saw (??) Now I'm taking it down with it all Someone somewhere need to take him a lot (??)
What happened to Paul? You never knew him at all Stretch out your web when I fall I'm a burning cinder much too hot What you remember I forgot All your names, each and all Whatever happened to Paul?
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Post by mudbacktodirt on Nov 28, 2020 13:58:01 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for Whole Foods Blues. I saw him debut it in Portland (think it was a debut). The venue is a block from a Whole Foods so I assumed he had just written it.
The line Whatever Happened to Paul? reminds me of the end of O.D. Blues from Dead Man Shake. He fell in with bad companions ... he lived happily ever after ... yo.
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Post by brianlux on Nov 30, 2020 1:52:18 GMT -5
For my tastes, Paul is in great company with my favorite singer/songwriter/storytellers:
Bob Dylan Willie Nelson Paul Westerberg Steve Wynn Neil Young
There are other greats of course, including Leonard Cohen, Bruce Springsteen, Kris Kristofferson, and Lou Reed, among others, but those first five are my favorites. I'm thrilled Paul chose to cover at least one of them.
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Post by mudbacktodirt on Dec 31, 2020 20:28:44 GMT -5
With regards to Tangled Up in Blue discussed above, one interesting thing is to listen to the early 'New York' version which did not wind up on the album. It's kind of sad and melancholy.
Then, there's the 1975-76 live versions which are more aggressive sounding. In between those two, there's the version that wound up on the album.
It's kind of like Goldilocks and the Three Bears (although which one is 'just right' is debatable - at various times, I've probably liked each one a little better than the others).
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Post by Hagbard on Jan 1, 2021 0:31:47 GMT -5
With regards to Tangled Up in Blue discussed above, one interesting thing is to listen to the early 'New York' version which did not wind up on the album. It's kind of sad and melancholy. Then, there's the 1975-76 live versions which are more aggressive sounding. In between those two, there's the version that wound up on the album. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the Three Bears (although which one is 'just right' is debatable - at various times, I've probably liked each one a little better than the others). I like all the versions of Tangled Up In Blue too. There’s a great love version from Montreal from 75, where he kind of slows it down and changes the whole feel of the song. I much prefer the original New York cut of Idiot Wind, the slower pace, the original lyrics..... Dylan sounds sad and resigned as opposed to angry and bitter, like the album track.
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Post by raccoon on Jan 3, 2021 17:50:49 GMT -5
He was pretty good at angry and bitter, too. Masters of War would not be the same without it.
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