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Post by unfknblvbl on Mar 21, 2018 4:49:45 GMT -5
It's one of the most honest heartfelt live Replacements songs I've ever heard.
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Post by unfknblvbl on Mar 21, 2018 4:55:53 GMT -5
True story, I once used the name Rolling Pin on this message board.
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Post by teddinard on Mar 21, 2018 6:46:09 GMT -5
Like it better than the original.
Seriously. A lot of the "great" Bob Dylan songs are about him dressing down and mocking somebody who is down, inferior to him, etc. I guess we're supposed to think the person deserves it. But it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Westerberg changes the lyrics to reverse all that--so that he is the loser, or at least no better than the person attacked ("threw the Mats a dime," "you used to laugh a lot, I used to laugh a lot," and so on).
This may be instinctive on PW's part. He probably didn't think a lot about it.
He may have a rotten personality in many respects, but one thing about him, he never puts on an air of superiority over other people (in his songs, anyway), at least that I can think of. He's down there on an equal footing with the losers. Not like Bob Dylan, who seems to love lording it over other people.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 21, 2018 9:35:02 GMT -5
Bob Dylan has great songs? Or does Dylan steal from others? Or has Joanie Mitchell said out loud an open secret among certain circles?
interviewer Matt Diehl's ill-advised attempt to compare Mitchell with Bob Dylan:
“The folk scene you came out of had fun creating personas. You were born Roberta Joan Anderson, and someone named Bobby Zimmerman became Bob Dylan.”
Mitchell: “Bob is not authentic at all. He’s a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception. We are like night and day, he and I.”
But back to the main topic, I dig the original. Didn't think the song was one of superiority as it was about shadenfreude about someone who thought or acted superior.
But in typical Paul fashion, he mutates the song and gently mocks Dylan by changing his song in Mats humor to "rolling pin". Oh, and imploring him to strap on a guitar and to join them.
PW may not put on the superior air, but I did find it funny to hear him and the Mats taking playful jabs at Tom Petty and the Stones on "Shit Shower and Shave".....
"this is the Breakdown sing-a-long....."
"they loved it when he did it..."
"It's been a pleasure and uh, Mr. Petty and the Heartbreakers will be out momentarily...."
"The Rolling Stones are playing Philadelphia tonight but we're better than them, so fuck them."
All hilarious!
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exit0
Tenderfoot
Posts: 11 
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Post by exit0 on Mar 21, 2018 13:32:16 GMT -5
And from SSS, Tommy croaking out "the waiting is the hardest part"
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Post by anarkissed on Mar 21, 2018 17:04:13 GMT -5
I'd like Dylan a lot better if he'd stop trying to sound so much like Robert Plant and found his own voice...
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Post by dee on Mar 21, 2018 19:59:18 GMT -5
Love Dylan,even Wiggle Wiggle.
By live,you mean live in the studio for Rolling Pin,right?
More Dylan as performed by PW...
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heyoka
Second Class Scout
Posts: 33
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Post by heyoka on Mar 22, 2018 23:18:19 GMT -5
According to 'Trouble Boys' Dylan was there listening to some part, if not all, of it. At least he took in stride. I don't care for his stuff other than his hits anyway.
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Post by DaveinDK on Mar 23, 2018 10:12:41 GMT -5
Westerberg's My Dad is a direct and simple rip off of Dylan's Positvely 4th Street.
Dylan's the greatest, despite what Joanie Mitchell says.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 23, 2018 13:45:53 GMT -5
Joni Mitchell is a bit of a cranky old nut herself. She may have some axes to grind and all and at her age doesn't care who she rips.
But there IS some truth to Dylan stealing stuff, so I guess it was okay for Paul to return the favor, ha ha. Anyway, my favorite Dylan stuff is Blood on the Tracks and Desire, both stuff going back 40+ years ago.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Mar 23, 2018 17:22:35 GMT -5
Dylan isn't everyone's thing, but he is to songwriters what The Beatles are to rock and roll bands: like it or not, there's not really one out there that doesn't owe him at least some level of debt, whether they realize it or admit to it or not. Everything would be different today.
That song is probably guilty of being overplayed, and I can understand why people might be sick of it, but if you can get past that, it's a pretty incredible track, especially for Dylan at a time when he was transitioning to electric music against a hostile fan base. I love the Drive-By Truckers version where they each took a verse, but that original is really something great.
As far as the Rolling Pin tune, parodies were never really my bag, and that's one I skip over. I would have much rather heard something with some effort behind it. At that point in their career they had intentionally moved beyond that kind of shtick and it felt to me like they were pandering a bit.
I can't remember if that was the session documented in Trouble Boys, or the exact exchange, where Paul was complaining to Dylan that they wouldn't let them track live - the way they wanted to, to which Dylan was puzzled as to why Paul would allow that, insinuating that Paul should be in charge of his own sessions, not these producers and record label guys. Dylan was right.
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Post by dee on Mar 23, 2018 18:41:35 GMT -5
Strange to think of someone being a Westerberg fan,but not care for Bobby D.
I see all the songwriters of a certain caliber as drawing their creativity from the same well,or tapping into the same thing within themselves.That's what I'm drawn to,that wellspring,it's what makes the music timeless.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 23, 2018 21:31:00 GMT -5
True, Bobby D ain't for everyone....but the songwriting thing, yeah. His influence is huge, coming out of the folks scene and going electric with The Band. The lyrics, the story telling that lent itself to multiple interpretations and above all, asking you how does it feel? Nah man, how does it feel to be on your own? Captured the zeitgeist and expressed what people were feeling but couldn't articulate themselves. Had anyone else ever used lyrics of depth and meaning like that before and tapped into such a collective consciousness like that?
And then in 1967, you get the Jefferson Airplane on Surrealistic Pillow doing a song called, "How Do You Feel?"
Go back and look at the Billboard top 100 year end singles and you'll see what was popular back then:
Wooly Bully
Sugar Pie Honey Bunch
Satisfaction
You were On My Mind
You've Lost that Loving Feeling
etc...
And then you get to something like Dylan making a splash with "Like a Rolling Stone" (finished at #41) . If we put it into context, then you can see, yeah, this guy was coming from a different place compared to what was being pumped out there. But critics and reviewers who wanted to annoint him as the "voice of a generation", no wonder Dylan became wary of and didn't wanna talk about what his songs meant. Because it meant different things to different people, they read into it what their experiences were.
Or maybe not, maybe I'm wrong. But he did have an influence....on other folkies (Peter Paul and Mary) to the Byrds, to Neil Young, etc....
Bruce Springsteen, 1988- "That snare shot that sounded like somebody'd kicked open the door to your mind, it reached down and touched what little worldliness a 15-year-old high school kid in New Jersey had in him at the time. Dylan was a revolutionary. Bob freed the mind the way Elvis freed the body."
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Mar 24, 2018 7:06:19 GMT -5
Great Springsteen quote, and great points about what Dylan did for songwriters. To say `he had an influence` is putting it mildly and doing him a disservice. And yeah, artists tend to recoil into their shells once their tagged as the `voice of a generation,` or whatever massive, overstated accolade is thrust on them.
Same thing happened to Westerberg. Once he started getting pegged with the `incredible songwriter` tag, he started second-guessing himself for a few years, then eventually became the guy he is today, so intimidated by expectations that he intentionally releases only partially realized and amateur-recorded songs to only those dedicated enough to find them on an un-advertised and not-promoted website.
Not blaming the media for tagging him - he is that great - or Paul for the way he deals with it - it's his prerogative, just an observation on how artists at that level are labeled and perceived, and the affect it has on them. They almost can't win. No one can live up to those labels, not Dylan or Paul or anyone, and these guys aren't equipped to deal with that. I'm not sure who is, outside of some beloved politicians maybe. Springsteen pulls it off. Bono does ok, though I'm not sure he was ever quite that revered as an artist himself.
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Post by dee on Mar 24, 2018 7:24:52 GMT -5
Listening to the Robbie Robertson interview on WTF he describes how those concerts were met with major opposition from the audience.
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Post by teddinard on Mar 24, 2018 13:25:40 GMT -5
Strange to think of someone being a Westerberg fan,but not care for Bobby D. I see all the songwriters of a certain caliber as drawing their creativity from the same well,or tapping into the same thing within themselves.That's what I'm drawn to,that wellspring,it's what makes the music timeless. What can I say? I find Bob Dylan songs to be impressive without liking them very much. I have no problem with his voice, or voices (because they changed). Fake or not. I think he sings fine. I just don't like his firehose approach. His images and commentary just keep unspooling, line after line. Some hit, some miss. I feel like his attitude is "if verse 3 doesn't get you, then verse 14 will." To say I prefer Westerberg's tautness and economy would be a massive understatement. |
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 24, 2018 14:14:19 GMT -5
You like what you like, I don't think there is any right or wrong. I have a friend who appreciates Westy's lyrics and word play, but he's just not into Paul or the Mats. And to be honest, Dylan's voice in his latter age is really unlistenable to me.
Interesting about Springsteen's quote though, it got me thinking---has any other song from that era had kind of a cold start? I'm guessing that snare drum hit to launch the song was a mistake? A fluke from how songs were normally started back in 1965? And the song stretched past the 3 minute or 4 minute pop song convention.
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Post by raccoon on Mar 25, 2018 9:42:03 GMT -5
Long live Dylan! Part of my trinity of rock greatness along with the Mats and the Stones. (Dylan at the top).:
May God bless and keep you always
May your wishes all come true
May you always do for others
And let others do for you
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young
May you grow up to be righteous
May you grow up to be true
May you always know the truth
And see the lights surrounding you
May you always be courageous
Stand upright and be strong
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young
May your hands always be busy
May your feet always be swift
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift
May your heart always be joyful
MAY YOUR SONG ALWAYS BE SUNG
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young
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Post by curmudgeonman on Mar 26, 2018 20:33:49 GMT -5
Strange to think of someone being a Westerberg fan,but not care for Bobby D. I agree. I have always said, even back in college in the 80s when I was first a Mats fan, that I did not trust one's musical instincts if they had a dislike for Dylan. My college age son is very much into contemporary music, but is a big Beatles fan. A couple of years ago, I played him "Masters Of War" and "A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall", explaining to him these songs came out before "I Wanna Hold Your Hand". He was blown away by how Dylan was so much more edgy, way more mature and more valid for today's music. He now listens to some Dylan, with far more respect for the man. He now understands the Dylan legend. |
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Post by curmudgeonman on Mar 26, 2018 20:41:27 GMT -5
I have posted this before, but here is an old Letterman performance from 1984 that is so Mats-like, it rocks in all of its imperfect glory.
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