Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Sept 4, 2023 9:17:40 GMT -5
This is why legacy artists sold off their song catalogs because during, and after Covid, road revenue disappeared. No money was coming in because royalties were almost non- existent.
Yep, they had/have one last chance at a big payout and they're taking it. Even now, artists like Bruce and Elton are staring down the end of the road for good and they're padding their retirement. Recorded music has almost no value to the vast majority of artists - it's literally and legally free for the taking, and when something is free, the public will take it. The owners of these platforms are getting filthy rich, the content providers are getting screwed, and the consumers are singing along.
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Post by FreeRider on Sept 4, 2023 13:02:30 GMT -5
thanks for the discussion here...I certainly didn't mean to imply that they would ever get a windfall from Spotify streaming, but rather that based on Mehr's statement, the discovery by the younger generation could maybe net them like a $10k check here or there. If they were lucky. I have no idea what kind of streaming they get, or even what Mehr is basing his statements off of.
And yes, all good points---streaming is the biggest rip off and the reason why I don't listen to streaming stuff that rips off the artists. (Actually, I just don't listen much to anything these days, but that's a different topic!) I recall that Dave Lowry from Cracker tried getting a class action lawsuit against Spotify over mechanical royalty rights for not securing the rights to play bands and also because of their horrible pay out rate for a stream. The end result was that he settled with Spotify, yet I don't think he truly moved the needle for the artists.
And if this is the best pay day for the Mats, then so be it. Unless you're willing to get back into the trenches and tour to generate income, these releases and remastered stuff by the Mats is the best they can do to get some sort of windfall. However, depending on how their debt repayment is structured, I guess Warner Bros will still get a big cut of the remastered releases, any unreleased stuff like videos and concert recordings, and for financing all their videos and studio time with advances etc, the label still has all the power over the artist unless you were savvy from the start, I guess.
I honestly can't see how bands today can make a living, either in a DIY, indie approach, or going for major label success. It's such a gamble and a grind and the labels and radio are gatekeepers, preferring risk aversion to promoting anything unique, original. Same old chord progressions, same old auto tuned crap...
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Post by curmudgeonman on Sept 4, 2023 18:27:02 GMT -5
I honestly can't see how bands today can make a living, either in a DIY, indie approach, or going for major label success. It's such a gamble and a grind and the labels and radio are gatekeepers, preferring risk aversion to promoting anything unique, original. Same old chord progressions, same old auto tuned crap... I am almost positive that Westerberg quit because he saw the current music business being far worse than when The Replacements were active. R.E.M. disbanded a dozen years ago, not because of internal conflicts or anything band related, it was all because Michael Stipe, and especially Peter Buck, could not tolerate what the business has become. Reportedly, Buck wrote out a five page list of why he wanted to quit REM, and it did not contain writing music, recording music, and playing music with the band as reasons. These two have essentially turned their backs to the industry and currently live life as they see fit. Of course, it is easier to do this when they own the masters of their Warners recordings, their publishing, they co-own businesses, etc. Plus they sold a lot of records, toured a lot of large places and made a lot of money.
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Post by Veets on Sept 4, 2023 18:35:28 GMT -5
I honestly can't see how bands today can make a living, either in a DIY, indie approach, or going for major label success. It's such a gamble and a grind and the labels and radio are gatekeepers, preferring risk aversion to promoting anything unique, original. Same old chord progressions, same old auto tuned crap... I am almost positive that Westerberg quit because he saw the current music business being far worse than when The Replacements were active. R.E.M. disbanded a dozen years ago, not because of internal conflicts or anything band related, it was all because Michael Stipe, and especially Peter Buck, could not tolerate what the business has become. Reportedly, Buck wrote out a five page list of why he wanted to quit REM, and it did not contain writing music, recording music, and playing music with the band as reasons. These two have essentially turned their backs to the industry and currently live life as they see fit. Of course, it is easier to do this when they own the masters of their Warners recordings, their publishing, they co-own businesses, etc. Plus they sold a lot of records, toured a lot of large places and made a lot of money. Interesting. But Buck did not quit music. Was it having to do with some obligation that REM had? So he couldn't go on as long as REM was a thing?
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Post by curmudgeonman on Sept 5, 2023 8:04:47 GMT -5
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Post by anarkissed on Sept 5, 2023 11:12:49 GMT -5
I believe that also released his last album on vinyl only...
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Sept 5, 2023 11:23:26 GMT -5
The business sucks, but in-demand artists don't have to feed that big corporate machine if they really don't want to, and they can still create at some level. Bands that want to create find ways. Tommy is doing it in a very unconventional way. Tom Waits managed a late-run career on a small label with very limited touring. Guns N Roses do zero press.
Pete Buck complaining about ProTools is just complaining. No one is making them do that, that's a choice. Go back to tape, issue resolved. Form your own label, cut way back on touring and marketing, get a manager you trust and don't do press. Play smaller places that aren't tied to LiveNation. There's more to this story than "we love making music but we hate the business."
Paul was releasing stuff completely untied to any sort of corporate machine, so he'd already abandoned the industry. He pretty clearly hated touring during the reunion, hated the immense expectations on his shoulders, and was in poor health with back issues, making a miserable situation even worse (for him, his band, and the audience).
I think Paul is just done and there's more to the REM story than we know. For now.
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Post by twicks1 on Sept 7, 2023 15:47:05 GMT -5
I think the R.E.M. story is, "We fulfilled our mega contract and our commercial prospects have dwindled to the point where we'd have to sign to an indie for next to nothing." Just my two cents, and worth every penny...
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Post by FreeRider on Sept 8, 2023 9:55:05 GMT -5
I looked for any other mentions of Paul being "retired" and it seems like a few years ago Darren Hill mentioned it. Found this on the Steve Hoffman forums where some others were wondering about where Paul was these days: About the 31 min mark, he talks about the Mats and Paul youtu.be/iQGh__lokic?si=EeD36lV3IBq2cpVuSo it just confirms what we all suspected, I guess. So be thankful we got to see the guy perform one last time because his touring days are over. I'm fine with that; I always figured he was done with that aspect. However, I'd like to think that his recording days aren't over and I still hold out hope he gets the itch to release one last solo thing as the final hurrah before really calling it day to pursue other interests. I still can't believe he hasn't been able to get more financial security in writing songs for others. You'd think Warner Bros would want him to be a songwriter for some of their artists. But I guess other artists/bands want to do their own songs or don't want him to be their Jimmy Webb or something. who knows...
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Post by curmudgeonman on Sept 9, 2023 9:43:41 GMT -5
^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks for the link.
It is interesting how both Hill and Mehr seem to phrase their words carefully about Westerberg retiring, no details, no more info, other than "he is basically/essentially retired". I'm sure they both do not want to speak for him, and I doubt we will ever get any more info from Westerberg directly. Just like Chris Mars, maybe he now considers The Mats as his version of a paper route as a kid, he is just not wired for it anymore.
I'm sure there are those who want one last blow out, that one last run for glory, but it was already done with the reunion tour, ending at the Primavera Sound festival.
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Post by FreeRider on Sept 9, 2023 12:56:27 GMT -5
Yeah, they both kind of chose their words carefully....
There's no doubt that touring is getting back into the trenches for him. He's already done that, checked that box off, paid the price for having done so. I don't think he'll ever hit the road again and perform, it's over. There's nothing to be gained by it, so it has zero benefit to him other than promoting something. That is the same old trap that bands fall into: release CD, tour endlessly in support of it. Rinse and repeat.
I just hope that whatever he does in the basement, or whatever he's sitting on, might be good enough to put out for a final hurrah, some new material. Like I said a few posts ago, I went back to listen to "Message to the Boys" and I have no idea how old that song was but when he and Tommy and Chris recorded it properly, it sounded fresh to me and could hold its own with anything out there today. At least to my ears. but I rarely listen to the radio or anything so what the hell do I know?
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Post by adamapple on Sept 9, 2023 13:52:09 GMT -5
Fyi- on message to the boys, chris did not play drums, josh freese did. I believe chris shook a tambourine and added some back up vocals..
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Jer
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Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Sept 11, 2023 17:54:28 GMT -5
...Like I said a few posts ago, I went back to listen to "Message to the Boys" ...it sounded fresh to me and could hold its own with anything out there today. At least to my ears. Yeah those 2 songs sounded great, and I loved the production value on Songs for Slim. It was a great mix of raw, loose, and fun, but still well recorded and mixed, with a super-competent drummer too. Not as ramshackle, sloppy, and unfinished as his basement stuff, but still raw - not as polished as his most produced studio stuff. Would have been great to get an album of original songs produced at that level.
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Post by Hagbard on Sept 11, 2023 18:10:36 GMT -5
...Like I said a few posts ago, I went back to listen to "Message to the Boys" ...it sounded fresh to me and could hold its own with anything out there today. At least to my ears. Yeah those 2 songs sounded great, and I loved the production value on Songs for Slim. It was a great mix of raw, loose, and fun, but still well recorded and mixed, with a super-competent drummer too. Not as ramshackle, sloppy, and unfinished as his basement stuff, but still raw - not as polished as his most produced studio stuff. Would have been great to get an album of original songs produced at that level.
I agree. I don’t know why the boys tried recording in Minehan’s studio, where everyone’s separated. If they would’ve recorded Wear Me Out Lout, Back, Whole Lotta Nothin etc in the same way as Songs For Slim, they might’ve captured lightning in a bottle. But oh well, we’ll never know.
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Jer
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Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Sept 12, 2023 9:33:19 GMT -5
I agree. I don’t know why the boys tried recording in Minehan’s studio, where everyone’s separated. Probably because it was convenient, easy, and free. And it probably failed because it was an easy out for Paul to find fault and bail on something he didn't want to do anyway.
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Post by FreeRider on Sept 12, 2023 20:25:46 GMT -5
Fyi- on message to the boys, chris did not play drums, josh freese did. I believe chris shook a tambourine and added some back up vocals.. correct---I think Paul said he asked Chris to play but he declined. Maybe he was rusty and hadn't picked up his drum sticks in awhile or he knew better than to fall back into the trap of having Paul get on him over the drumming? And so, it was fine for him to sing back up vocals and leave the drumming to Josh
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Post by FreeRider on Sept 12, 2023 20:33:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I thought Pool and Dive and Message to the Boys sounded fresh and contemporary. I don't know how old those songs were or how long Paul had been sitting on them, but they sound, song wise, just as good if not better than whatever was currently being played on the radio at that time.
And production wise, yes, it wasn't the low fi basement quality, but a step up. So it's a shame, like Hagbard said, that they didn't try to find lightning in a bottle. Any follow up CD to the reunion tour just fell flat maybe because Paul self sabotaged the project to put out new material? Felt the pressure to produce? Who knows, man...
I guess all we are left with are re-issued stuff, outtakes, unreleased stuff. Would love to see the video of the reunion tour or the Grant Park concert stuff.
ETA: I just checked like the top rock songs for 2006, when "Don't YOu Know Who I think I was" came out:
RHCP - Dani California
Three Days grace - Pain
Nickelback - Animals
Three Days Grace - Animal I have Become
RHCP - Snow
My Chemical Romance - Welcome to the Black Parade
Stone Sour - Through Glass
Weezer - Perfect Situation
NIN - Every Day is Exaclty the Same
10 Years - Wastedland
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Post by ClamsCasino on Sept 16, 2023 17:03:33 GMT -5
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Post by con on Sept 17, 2023 9:20:34 GMT -5
Cannot wait to hear this puppy in full. Those snippets sound fantastic. Wondering if those lovely monochromatic photos are from this project—some kind of making-of documentary or something in the works? Glad to hear Paul was involved and consulted and approves. Less than a week till it drops!
Aside: Back in ‘85, what were some of the alterate titles considered for Tim? I recall Whistler’s Mammy. Was Let It Bleed another?
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Post by FreeRider on Sept 17, 2023 9:48:08 GMT -5
Cannot wait to hear this puppy in full. Those snippets sound fantastic.... Agree, those little sound bites sounded soooo much more defined and clear! For example, hearing more piano than before, more guitar fills that were buried.
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