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Post by curmudgeonman on Feb 25, 2022 19:46:36 GMT -5
I do think it is an exaggeration that Westerberg can get a record deal in a single phone call, but I really think he can get a decent deal to release new material, to tour, to basically play the rock musician game if he really wanted to. The problem is that it appears he has zero motivation for that. Old songs now represent 70 percent of the U.S. music market, according to the latest numbers from MRC Data, a music-analytics firm. Those who make a living from new music—especially that endangered species known as the working musician-—should look at these figures with fear and trembling. But the news gets worse: The new-music market is actually shrinking. All the growth in the market is coming from old songs. And the sad addendum to your post is that the "older" artists are not making money from royalties of their past catalog in today's Spotify world, hence the countless number of superstar rock artists selling off their song rights. It can be argued that the modern day recording artist is more fucked in the modern digital age than ever before. With the buy outs of song catalogs, the companies and corporations control more of pop music more than ever before. Controlling music content is more of a strategy than ever, and the music artist is losing. New and upcoming artists and "fringe" artists- yes, including Westerberg- are in a very tough spot now. Selling content is a long shot, touring is a clusterfuck in a Covid world, and too many avenues available for "entertainment"- internet, social media, video and online games, etc. etc. Even to an older fan of pop music, it is a very different world out there.
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Post by FreeRider on Feb 25, 2022 21:43:28 GMT -5
oh of course...today's musicians are screwed along with the older ones. There was a Steely Dan interview where they mentioned that touring was a necessity since their back catalog stopped selling and the royalties were diminished. And someone did an analysis to see whether Donald Fagen was just clueless about this statement: Fagen is upset that his income is taking a hit because his recorded music sales aren’t what they used to be. He recently said this to the Wall Street Journal:
"When the bottom fell out of the record business a bunch of years ago, it deprived me of the luxury of earning a living from records. I don’t sell enough albums to cover the cost of recording them the way I like to. For me, touring is the only way to make a living." The entire article is here: www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2017/08/steely-dans-donald-fagen-just-doesnt-get-it-unless-he-does.htmlBut yeah, the major label thing is not something Paul is going to do again. It would mean he'd be beholden again to a label and contractually obligated to give them X amount of albums or releases and tours, etc. His touring and promotion days for a major label are over. Now maybe due to economic necessity (like Donald Fagen) Paul might have to do something again to pay the bills and the rent.
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Post by Veets on Feb 25, 2022 22:20:58 GMT -5
Fagan and a lot of bands of that era got wealthy from their same music selling in different formats: vinyl, cassette, CD, sometimes vinyl again, and some digital. They just got used to the endless stream of money for nothing (I'm looking at you, Mark Knopfler), and now are bellyaching when it's tailing off.
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Post by FreeRider on Feb 26, 2022 9:41:40 GMT -5
sure, I'm not going to feel too bad for the older established bands who've made enough money to buy Hefty bags of cocaine back in the day (as opposed to artists who never got that big pay day), but still there are the economics that are affecting not just older bands, but the newer artists or fringe artists as well. And if the Atlantic article is saying that the music industry is reacting by pushing the older artists on the streaming platforms, well, the royalty rates still grossly are in the favor of the publishing and copyright owners over the artists' performance royalties and mechanical rights. And that is assuming you can get a high number of streams to generate any revenue. And at the same time, the industry is averse to pushing or getting behind the younger/newer artists. So it's really up to the artist to take care of their own business interests and it's going to be hard to break through with so many others out there trying to self promote on the social media sites and You Tube. The upside is, the artist is not beholden to the record label game with contractual obligations of "you owe the label 5 separate original works of music, and you agree to promote through touring" etc... So Paul might make some profits (won't be great though) in a crowd funded new album/CD or downloads in a DIY effort. A good bit of the costs maybe would be to actually have CD or vinyl albums pressed, and then shipping the stuff out to folks. Or he could bypass all of it and simply make it available again on Bandcamp or something as digital downloads. I guess it would depend upon what the financial goal would be and if there would be enough interest to hit the target, eg, $15,000? Are there enough fans to gin up $15,000? $20,000? More? I dunno. But it's a fun thought experiment! And who knows if Darren reads this and stuff and gets Paul inspired to do something like this. I mean, I kind of felt that the reason why Paul put out his own songbook was because a few of us here were talking about it. Coincidence? I dunno. and I'm not so sure how much he's sold but it's still for sale: www.amazon.com/Westerberg-Replacements-Guitar-Recorded-Versions/dp/1423492919
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Feb 26, 2022 11:43:16 GMT -5
I think Paul's biggest hurdle is the mental weight of dealing with the expectations of his public (fans, peers, and press), not his desire to create. I think that weight is what's behind his disdain of playing live, his lack of any desire to do anything "conventionally," and his refusal to release the reunion DVD from St. Paul. I also think the basement recordings are a passive-aggressive response to those expectations and his veiled attempt to thwart them, rather than the courage [edit:] strength it might take to meet them or even ignore them and just play. Artists like Dylan, Simon, Springsteen have the ability to provide a legitimate product (releases, tours, etc) despite similar, even greater expectations on them, but everyone's different, everyone has their own demons and hangups, and I think Paul just can't deal with the idea that he'll never add up to the high bar that's been placed in front of him. Reading between the lines of his words and actions in the last 20 years, and his obsession with the self-sabotage of success from the very start seem to point this way. As always, strictly speculation.
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Post by curmudgeonman on Feb 26, 2022 18:56:04 GMT -5
sure, I'm not going to feel too bad for the older established bands who've made enough money to buy Hefty bags of cocaine back in the day (as opposed to artists who never got that big pay day), but still there are the economics that are affecting not just older bands, but the newer artists or fringe artists as well. The thing is that the way the music industry paid its artists, many of them were buying cocaine, luxury cars, jewelry, etc all on credit (advances), and not in real earned cash. In addition to their coke and cars, they had to pay for recording costs, marketing, "breakage", MTV videos, tour costs, lawyers, agents, etc. all from their royalties. This is why the Goo Goo Dolls, who sold a shit ton of A Boy Named Goo, didn't make a dime from the multi-million selling album. Same with Soul Asylum's big 90s album. Even though they had huge records, their royalties could not cover their costs and living expenses. Tom Petty had the same problem early in his career as well, until he filed for bankruptcy, keeping the wolves at bay. Van Halen were close to a million dollars in debt when they started recording their 2nd album, and their debut album sold millions. John Doe had a steady music career, but he admitted he did not make any money until he started to get roles in movies, a guaranteed salary for actual work. The music industry is a shitty one, corrupt and predatory, and in the modern digital age, more so. A fraction of a penny for a stream- pitiful. More one-sided than the old days of vinyl and CDs, with cigar chomping execs, which were shitty business practices to begin with. Now it is young high tech types controlling things now.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Feb 27, 2022 9:28:28 GMT -5
The thing is that the way the music industry paid its artists, many of them were buying cocaine, luxury cars, jewelry, etc all on credit (advances), and not in real earned cash. In addition to their coke and cars, they had to pay for recording costs, marketing, "breakage", MTV videos, tour costs, lawyers, agents, etc. all from their royalties. This is why the Goo Goo Dolls, who sold a shit ton of A Boy Named Goo, didn't make a dime from the multi-million selling album. Same with Soul Asylum's big 90s album. Even though they had huge records, their royalties could not cover their costs and living expenses. Tom Petty had the same problem early in his career as well, until he filed for bankruptcy, keeping the wolves at bay. Van Halen were close to a million dollars in debt when they started recording their 2nd album, and their debut album sold millions. John Doe had a steady music career, but he admitted he did not make any money until he started to get roles in movies, a guaranteed salary for actual work. The music industry is a shitty one, corrupt and predatory, and in the modern digital age, more so. A fraction of a penny for a stream- pitiful. More one-sided than the old days of vinyl and CDs, with cigar chomping execs, which were shitty business practices to begin with. Now it is young high tech types controlling things now. Can't argue with any of this. I'd just add that the bands could control the hemorrhaging of money but they're usually young and naive and so caught up in the excitement of it all - the buses, recording budgets, drugs, girls/boys - that they just roll with it until it inevitably crashes, and they're back in the van, playing smaller clubs, and sharing rooms. There's some good reading in Bob Mould's book about his time with Virgin Records and and the way money was spent.
The Tom Petty situation was especially difficult because he couldn't even release new music for a couple key years to make money/pay off debts because of legal wrangling. The fact that he got through that and had an amazing career says something about his talent and business savvy.
Goo Goo Dolls cashed in on Iris. They've somehow managed to remain viable, playing bigger shows, having the odd AOR hit over the years. Bands like Soul Asylum didn't fare quite as well for whatever reason, though the early trajectory was similar.
And I'm not surprised X never made money. They weren't exactly mainstream. Can't find figures, but I would imagine they sold less than The Replacements.
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Post by FreeRider on Feb 27, 2022 9:38:15 GMT -5
certainly, the industry is corrupt and not in it for any sort of cultural, artistic reasons unless it falls in their laps with lots of money making to be had. So I don't blame Paul for staying away from the major label game at all. There has to be some groundswell of new music or artists, some new grass roots force that grows popular on its own. Only then will the record labels, who are too slow to understand what's going on, come calling. otherwise, they stick with what they know makes money.
As for some personal demons he's carrying? Sure. "Trouble Boys" delved into it, with the self sabotage stuff, the lack of belief in themselves. But at this point, I'd think he'd stop worrying about expectations and what the critics/fans think. He has, to a certain extent, not given a damn, I guess. The basement recordings is his measure of control, doing it his way and not having some record label goon looking over his shoulder.
Whether or not he's got anything to say from a songwriting perspective, I dunno. Songs don't always have to be ones that have great significance or artistic meaning all the time. It's just rock and roll. I mean, it's kind of unfair to ask for another "Unsatisfied", or "Bastards of Young" or whatever.
Maybe he's still got some juice left to say something poignant to us all, about getting older, that we can all relate to.
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who?
Star Scout
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Post by who? on Feb 27, 2022 11:24:14 GMT -5
He's been saying for a very long time he doesn't have much to say anymore, but maybe his inspiration has overcome his lack of drive from time to time, these last 15-20yrs. As we age, inspiration can be a very rare commodity, given the individual. I'd def like to hear something new from him again (or, more exciting would be that Midway video), but who knows... www.youtube.com/watch?v=agPxkQqSj-A
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Post by curmudgeonman on Feb 27, 2022 15:54:07 GMT -5
certainly, the industry is corrupt and not in it for any sort of cultural, artistic reasons unless it falls in their laps with lots of money making to be had. So I don't blame Paul for staying away from the major label game at all. There has to be some groundswell of new music or artists, some new grass roots force that grows popular on its own. Only then will the record labels, who are too slow to understand what's going on, come calling. otherwise, they stick with what they know makes money. It's funny, my son and his girlfriend are here for the afternoon to stay for dinner. They are in their mid-20s and he works in the high tech industry. The conversation got around to music, he is a fan of all sorts of stuff; rap, electronica, The Beatles and even The "Mats. But he has been a diehard fan of Asian pop music in recent years and I was telling him how it used to be as far as music delivery systems (LPs, tapes, CDs) and promotion (radio, MTV, touring). My son has never purchased a CD or vinyl in his life, same with his girlfriend and all of their friends as well. In fact, I am the only person I know of in my core group of friends and family that still buys and enjoys CDs. But anyways, he tells me that today's music trends are created primarily on Tik Tok, with promotion and marketing done on Instagram. He says there are unknown artists that can gain millions of views/listens with a hot little video. He claims careers have been made from Tik Tok, and he is right ,when I researched it a little. My son said there are artists who don't have record deals or anything like that, and have built followings of millions, just from Tik Tok videos, including in Korea and Japan. They manage to get their songs on to Spotify using middle-man companies that charge a flat fee, and they end up keeping 100% of the royalties (instead of record labels getting first crack at it, then giving the artist crumbs). A very interesting conversation, revealing stuff I never knew. Like Westerberg, I am a luddite to a certain extent. In Westy's case, years back I read he doesn't own a computer or a cell phone.
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Post by FreeRider on Feb 28, 2022 10:36:17 GMT -5
Well, I'm a bit of a dinosaur myself. I still like CD's, albums. I still dig the artwork, the liner notes, the hidden messages scratched out on the vinyl, stuff like that. Yet, I'm resigned to this new way of consuming music. However, I'm not too sold on streaming platforms as much. I had a free trial of Sirius Radio and it was ok, and CONVENIENT in terms of hearing something you wanted to hear, when you wanted to hear it. However, I just couldn't see myself subscribing when I realized I listened to only a few channels. It's like cable TV---you also get 100 more channels of shit that you'd never watch outside of your favorites.
So yes, the younger generation is more in tuned with these other ways to build a fan base. It is totally outside the "let's-get-signed-to-a-label!" ethos that the artist was beholden to. It's a DIY ethos now and it requires a lot of skill sets apart from just the music. And maybe that's good because it forces the new artist to learn about some business stuff, about merchandising, and about marketing. That's kind of what the essay in the Atlantic mentioned as well. A performing arts career can be made but it'll take a lot of sweat and work.
So it's a totally new world out there. We're living through a period of great change in the entire world, our societies. It can be scary for the performing artist, change sometimes doesn't have a good outcome unless you can adapt quickly and figure things out. But you either adapt and find ways or you flame out and fade away into the dustbin of history.
"To change with change remains the changeless state." Bruce Lee
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Post by FreeRider on Feb 28, 2022 10:49:30 GMT -5
He's been saying for a very long time he doesn't have much to say anymore, but maybe his inspiration has overcome his lack of drive from time to time, these last 15-20yrs. As we age, inspiration can be a very rare commodity, given the individual. I'd def like to hear something new from him again (or, more exciting would be that Midway video), but who knows... www.youtube.com/watch?v=agPxkQqSj-AYep, valid points! he told us quite awhile ago about AAA. Inspiration, motivation---it gets harder for even me to muster up enthusiasm to work out, go for a run or walk, do some body weight exercises. My energy levels aren't what they once were. My old running partner (when I used to be a consistent runner) told me, "The hardest part of running is lacin' them up and getting out the door." And yes, I'd still like to hear something new from Paul too. Even if he's past his songwriting peak, I still think he's got some juice left to crank out some stuff we'd enjoy. I've said before, I hope he goes out with a bang and gives the fans a final hurrah one last time, if he's really hanging it up and calling it a day on his music career. So come on, Paul meet us down the alley once last time to say goodbye... 😥
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Post by iggystardust on Apr 1, 2022 16:54:20 GMT -5
Has anyone ever done an unsolicited Kickstarter for an unwritten album? It could be fun to see how much $ fans could pre-commit for any new PW album, and see how he responds. THIS!! Or some sort of fundraiser to help out with those Warner Bros bills? It pains me to see my favorite songwriter up to his ass in debt. Money ruins everything.
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Post by ClamsCasino on Apr 2, 2022 0:17:29 GMT -5
I'm sure he's fine. It's silly to think that Paul needs $15k from us to make a record. I'm sure he made more from the last tour than most people make in their whole lives. As somebody who's been to Dave Pirner's house, the idea that these guys are struggling is pretty funny.
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Post by maximumbob on Apr 14, 2022 14:11:15 GMT -5
I'm sure he's more than fine, financially speaking. I'm betting the reunion, reissues and licensing songs to film and TV have paid for the divorce, college and then some. The hacienda in Edina has got to be worth close to a million bucks. Cigarettes ain't cheap, but I'm sure his overhead is low. I hope he's enjoying retirement. We should all be so lucky.
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Post by twicks1 on Apr 14, 2022 15:01:01 GMT -5
Like I always point out, dude doesn't drive, so no car insurance. He's probably flush.
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Ginsu
First Class Scout
Can you dig my trumpet clip?
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Post by Ginsu on May 24, 2022 10:12:24 GMT -5
Like I always point out, dude doesn't drive, so no car insurance. He's probably flush. Saving that petrol is like moolah in the bank (or crypto wallet).
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