Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Mar 5, 2019 7:53:19 GMT -5
Wow...with no label support at all, we're fortunate to hear what we've heard of late from him. Yeah it'd be great to hear full major label supported production but until that happens again....I will take what we get today and will be Thankful for it because his songwriting trumps all else imo. And we need More of it!!! I'll would surely take more Stereo/Mono VS Eventually all day!!! And I am sure that Paul would happily ablige. Hopefully:) He could get label support in a second if he wanted. That's not holding him back and it's not the reason that he's gone down the path he has. And yes, his songwriting trumps all else, but editing and finishing is huge part of that and he's forsaken those parts in both composition and performance. These recordings are full of great ideas, but they're lost in-between not-so-great ideas, intentionally sub-par musicianship, and a distribution format that, while appropriate for the quality he's turning out, will reach a few hundred people tops. I liked Stereo/Mono, even with all the things that bug me. It was great when it came out - a cool new approach. But he's since pretty much stayed that course and even taken that approach to increasingly deeper levels and the novelty quickly wore off. I liked Eventually too, but it was a bit polished. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Let's meet in the middle, with the loose, raw attitude of Mono but the production and musicianship of Songs for Slim. Who wouldn't long for that?
I respect his decision to do what he wants with his art, and I'll continue to support him in everything he does, but I think it's a shame. One of the most respected songwriters of a generation is capable of more and deserves more.
++++ what do you have bad to say about.... ? I liked the I Don't Cares record - I'm a huge Juliana fan from way back and would be hard pressed to name two people I'd rather see collaborate. But I thought the record fell short in the end. That King of America song is really great and the record had plenty of bright spots - great riff here, great lyric there, the odd standout tune, but in the end it was a collection of unfinished PW demos with more adolescent drumming and thrown-together parts. Imagine how great that record would have been if they'd hired a real drummer and spent a little more time on the songs and performances. It wasn't bad - I was excited about it, pre-ordered it, then forgot about it after a few weeks. The collaboration was cool but it should/could have yielded a better record.
All these basement recordings remind me of all the bonus material that's attached to these iconic records from the 60s and 70s. Like that White Album box that came out last year or that Exile on Main Street remaster box from a few years back. Those demos and alt-takes and all that - it's cool to hear, it's interesting, there's moments of brilliance there, and it's neat to be be able to see how the songs eventually came out of those ideas, but in the end, nine times out of ten, you're going to go back to the White Album and not those bonus tracks. It's because of the editing process - making those songs as good as they can be, trimming off the fat, the most efficient arrangements, getting the vocals right, making sure that guitar is in tune. You need great songs, there's nothing without `em, but they have to be finished before they're actually great. Othwerwise they're novelties or demos at best - bonus tracks if you're lucky.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 5, 2019 11:08:30 GMT -5
Funny, I just listened to King of America the other night and I'll agree with Jer that is the stand out song because it is a more polished and refined song.
I appreciate the basement style recordings (like everyone here, I'll take what I can get from him), but yeah---stuff like his guitar tone, or vocals being muddied up and stuff. Sure, I get the immediacy thing and "first take is the best", but if things were more balanced out...
For example, it'd be like the sonic difference between like a cheap Yamaha folk guitar and a Martin acoustic guitar. You could play the same song but the Martin guitar would bring a much richer, deeper sound, versus a muddied, not very crisp sounding Yamaha. It's passable, but the sound quality difference is big.
I mean, when I hear "Wear Me Out Loud", it really is stuff on a cassette tape, being transferred and digitized! At least it sounds like it to my ears. The only thing new on it is adding in new vocals from Julianna. And maybe it was too much work for him to re-create everything new, but maybe he should've?
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Post by twicks1 on Mar 5, 2019 11:11:48 GMT -5
I think Dr. Tommy Stinson nailed it when he diagnosed Paul with "demo-itis." Either he can't accept other people putting their spin on his songs, or he just can't be bothered to move beyond his first messy take of an idea.
Pretty sure this was all in the Uncut article leading up to those last UK shows, when they were still trying to make a new Replacements record. Paul says they spent a bunch of time on "Wear Me Out Loud" as a band and it just wasn't working...fast forward to the I Don't Cares record and it's such a straightforward rocker I can't imagine how that Mats lineup wasn't nailing the song. But Paul just didn't like it.
Tommy even says that he begged Paul not to "officially" demo his songs anymore, just go back to writing them how he did in the old days and bring them to the band to flesh out. Sounds like Paul just couldn't bring himself to do it. Too bad.
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Post by ClamsCasino on Mar 5, 2019 12:53:11 GMT -5
But that's an Eventually outtake, not a basement recording.
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Post by ClamsCasino on Mar 5, 2019 13:00:53 GMT -5
I always go back to the Songs for Slim ep. Even though it was all covers, it was raw and loose and had great drumming and spirited, finished vocals. I would be ecstatic with that level of production. [/div] [/quote] Yeah, I don't understand why those post-reunion recording sessions couldn't have gone exactly like the Songs for Slim session. The way Tommy and Josh Freese described those sessions was just strange. They both talked about how Paul was thrown for a loop because they couldn't record live in the same room, but then the Songs for Slim session was described as all of them just getting together and recording live in the same room.
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Post by twicks1 on Mar 5, 2019 13:20:47 GMT -5
I suspect the major difference was that Songs For Slim was all covers that Paul hadn't already demoed.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Mar 5, 2019 13:41:17 GMT -5
All good points. What it comes down to, I think, is that Paul has some issue with putting himself out there. Fear of failure, not meeting expectations, being criticized, facing the fans, working hard, playing live, touring, dealing with the music industry, or other things. It's probably a combination of some or all of that stuff. And to be honest, it's nothing new - he's been avoiding success since the very beginning. The story is one self-defeating, dysfunctional debacle after another.
So his response is to do these basement recordings that are heard by next to no one, can't really be criticized because they are what they are, and keep him largely protected from the public eye - all while still providing some level of creative outlet.
Why would he approach the sessions with Tommy and Josh any differently? He was looking for any reason to sabotage them, maybe not even consciously, so he wouldn't put himself out there. It's not like they couldn't have found a different studio, or said "No - we're all playing in the same room" or just gone along with it. Remember when he met Bob Dylan in a studio and he said they wouldn't let him record how he wanted to and Dylan was perplexed why Paul would let someone else make that decision (if I remember that story correctly)?
He can pull it together when he wants to, but it's been a while. Somehow he got past it for Songs for Slim. He pulled it together to agree to do that tour, but when it came time to pay the piper he was back to his old, grumpy, dysfunctional self, whoring himself out (in his own words) for something he didn't even want. He should do what makes him happy, and we can support him, while still wishing that he'd live up to his potential.
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nyc1lkg
First Class Scout
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Post by nyc1lkg on Mar 5, 2019 13:43:04 GMT -5
But that's an Eventually outtake, not a basement recording. What year was Eventually released, '96? The lyrics could have been written today and nobody would believe otherwise. My teenage kids are reasonably socially conscious and picked up on the themes in the song. I find it very interesting that Paul wrote a song like this that long ago. While nothing like Androgynous or The Ledge, I liken this song to those in their social commentary/awareness.
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Post by twicks1 on Mar 5, 2019 13:57:08 GMT -5
All good points. What it comes down to, I think, is that Paul has some issue with putting himself out there. Fear of failure, not meeting expectations, being criticized, facing the fans, working hard, playing live, touring, dealing with the music industry, or other things. It's probably a combination of some or all of that stuff. And to be honest, it's nothing new - he's been avoiding success since the very beginning. The story is one self-defeating, dysfunctional debacle after another. I generally agree except for the Singles/14 Songs/Eventually era. Seemed like Paul was going for it and "playing the game" to the best of his ability...all those radio station live sessions alone, yeesh.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 5, 2019 14:16:21 GMT -5
.... Why would he approach the sessions with Tommy and Josh any differently? He was looking for any reason to sabotage them, maybe not even consciously, so he wouldn't put himself out there. It's not like they couldn't have found a different studio, or said "No - we're all playing in the same room" or just gone along with it. Remember when he met Bob Dylan in a studio and he said they wouldn't let him record how he wanted to and Dylan was perplexed why Paul would let someone else make that decision (if I remember that story correctly)? That was a great story in the book...here it is. Once, Westerberg and Dylan were alone and made small talk. Dylan nodded toward the floor studio: "I like the way you're setting it up there, "said Dylan---the Replacements recorded live in the round, as he'd done in the midsixties. "Thanks", replied Westerberg. "The fucked-up thing is, they don't want us to play like this." Dylan cocked his head: "Who's they?" "You know," said Westerberg, waving a hand in the air, indicating an army of oppressors, real and imagined. " Them." All of a sudden, Dylan became animated, almost angry: "Who's 'they'? Who's them? Who are you talking about?" Then he stepped forward and told Westerberg: " There isn't any 'them'. You're the artist: you do what you want. No one tells you what to do." And unfortunately, no one is telling Paul what to do nowadays to help him. Upthread somewhere, I posted that interview of him back in the 90's or something and it foreshadowed how he'd operate: he hasn't anyone to bounce ideas off of and he pretty much does things his way.
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Post by anarkissed on Mar 5, 2019 14:41:13 GMT -5
Paul has some issue with putting himself out there. Fear of failure, not meeting expectations, being criticized, facing the fans, working hard, playing live, touring, dealing with the music industry, or other things. It's probably a combination of some or all of that stuff. This is why I said this: "He's never going to do an 'actual album'...There's no way he's gonna tour...He's through writing songs, huh? I'm o.k. with the searching through the archives phase, but I think he hates that shit..."
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Mar 5, 2019 16:44:16 GMT -5
I generally agree except for the Singles/14 Songs/Eventually era. Seemed like Paul was going for it and "playing the game" to the best of his ability...all those radio station live sessions alone, yeesh. Yeah, I meant from Stereo/Mono on, for the most part. Everything from DTAS through Suicane was pretty polished, some for better, some not, but none of it was half-assed musically. They were at least collaborations with musicians and producers. Even Open Season was produced well, and of course Songs For Slim. And look how great those two songs he wrote for Glen Campbell turned out in the hands of a good producer. This is why I said this: "He's never going to do an 'actual album'...There's no way he's gonna tour...He's through writing songs, huh? I'm o.k. with the searching through the archives phase, but I think he hates that shit..." I agree with you, but I hope we're wrong. And unfortunately, no one is telling Paul what to do nowadays to help him. Upthread somewhere, I posted that interview of him back in the 90's or something and it foreshadowed how he'd operate: he hasn't anyone to bounce ideas off of and he pretty much does things his way.
Yep - but it sounds like Tommy at least tried.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 5, 2019 19:51:10 GMT -5
And unfortunately, no one is telling Paul what to do nowadays to help him. Upthread somewhere, I posted that interview of him back in the 90's or something and it foreshadowed how he'd operate: he hasn't anyone to bounce ideas off of and he pretty much does things his way. Yep - but it sounds like Tommy at least tried.
Indeed....and I'm wondering if Paul really took it to heart what Dylan told him. I mean, hes' basically doing what Dylan advised: " You're the artist: you do what you want. No one tells you what to do." The only problem is, that also gives you an out from accepting constructive advice when taking that stance. Yes, I get that artists must please themselves first. However, to be a performing artist also puts you into a symbiotic relationship. The artist can't really exist if he or she has no audience, so there is some balancing act. Like yin and yang. You can't have day without the night and in Taoist philosophy, they are not two separate things; rather, they exist as one. As does the artist and his/her audience. And if all an artist does is please him/herself with really zero thought about an audience, not sharing anything with anyone---well, how lonely an existence is that? And is that person really an artist or just a hobbyist at that point? Now, I'm not saying Paul is in hobbyist status; he does, after all, still release stuff to his fan base (although, it's been really quiet of late). I dunno if we're at that point where he's basically called it a day and only writes stuff for himself now. I mean, you're getting into JD Salinger territory, being all reclusive and writing stuff only for himself and not sharing anything with the broader world outside Furthermore, if he's really done then it's a shame that he goes out this way with some Soundcloud stuff. The man has a talent and something to contribute to this messed up world. It's a bit of a crime for him not to be heard. Hell, even Paul Simon said he himself is done---but with touring! He said he'll still write and record stuff, but he just isn't going to hit the road at the age of 77 or whatever.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Mar 6, 2019 10:51:35 GMT -5
Yeah exactly - He should be comfortable recording, but it sounds like it wasn't to his liking so he left rather than to push to change it or go along with it. When you're paying for studio time it's ultimately up to you how it's done, especially when you're an artist of that caliber. There can be discussions, and engineers can strongly push that things are done a certain way, but unless you're on someone else's dime and have relinquished that control it's something that you have a say in. Of course it's all just conjecture - we weren't there and we've only heard what Tommy said, so it could have been a different scene, but it seems believable, an excuse to bail on it. Writing for your audience is a weird thing. Most songwriters will write for themselves first (or an artist they are writing for), but whether you're a singer/songwriter working on your craft or a ghost writing team writing the next Katy Perry hit, you're trying to write the best song possible. There is an editing/refinement process that takes time. It's trial and error, seeing what works and what doesn't, taking some time to digest it, and adjusting until the song is done. There's a balance between not enough and too much. And all that happens before you even record it properly. So in the end you're writing for yourself, but when you put that level of work into it, you're giving your audience the best product you can - which maximizes the success of the song (whatever success is in your mind). You're not necessarily writing for your audience per-se, but they benefit from a better product.
The downside is that you lose the spontaneity that is apparently a priority with Paul, at least when it comes to performance (first take is the best, then no interest after that). I'm not sure exactly how much effort he puts into writing that stuff, as opposed to the performance, and I'd be the last to tell anyone close to his talent how to write, but it seems like a lot more effort went into his pre-basement stuff, and I might speculate that he takes a similar approach to writing as he does with performance - slap it together, lay it down, move on. I don't believe he spent the time composing most of that Dry Wood stuff as he did something like Achin' to Be or Lookin' Out Forever, and it shows. It's loose and raw, moments of greatness, lots of good lines and parts, a great start, but there's a lot of fluff in there that he would have previously trimmed off before handing it over to the public.
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Post by ClamsCasino on Mar 6, 2019 13:06:29 GMT -5
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 7, 2019 10:54:14 GMT -5
It's strange--I guess Paul still has this insecurity or some mental block thing and so avoids putting himself out there again. Yet, to be fair, he did try (Eventually and 14 Songs) and it was met with a bit of indifference by his fan base and didn't seem to move the needle at all for mainstream radio. I have no idea how much or how little he labors on his ideas, how lazy (and I doubt that though) he is. From the CFMT documentary, we seem him struggling with "Wild and Lethal", take after take, sorting through paper scraps of lyrics, and all. But he has also said that his woodshedding in his basement is also kind of like a therapy for him. And more importantly, he also has said something to the effect of his songs are only alive for that moment. After it's done, it goes up on the shelf and has no life until at all until he actually performs it again. So it seems as if he has this ethos of, "when it's done, it's done. On to the next one." And if that is how he operates, then that would make sense that he wouldn't re-create entirely some of those demos for the Wild Stab CD with Julianna except to add in new vocals with her and maybe add in a new guitar part? I'm just speculating here, I have no idea. But on the whole, I am fine with what he's churning out--despite my little critiques about sound quality or drumming, etc. I just hope that if this is the end, he does something a little more grandiose than going out with the Dry Wood and Soundcloud stuff---and I gotta think he was just throwing us fans a bone here, that those tunes wasn't his best stuff (I hope!). In the end, it goes back to Ricky Nelson: Played them all the old songs, thought that's why they came No one heard the music, we didn't look the same I said hello to "Mary Lou", she belongs to me When I sang a song about a honky-tonk, it was time to leave
Someone opened up a closet door and out stepped Johnny B. Goode Playing guitar like a-ringin' a bell and lookin' like he should If you gotta play at garden parties, I wish you a lotta luck But if memories were all I sang, I rather drive a truck
And it's all right now, learned my lesson well You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_Party_(Rick_Nelson_song)
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Post by ClamsCasino on Mar 8, 2019 11:51:35 GMT -5
And if that is how he operates, then that would make sense that he wouldn't re-create entirely some of those demos for the Wild Stab CD with Julianna except to add in new vocals with her and maybe add in a new guitar part? I'm just speculating here, I have no idea. That's what he's said in interviews. I think in the Peter Wolf interview he talks about how he didn't do anything on some songs. I know he talked about how Born For Me was not a redo, but an earlier version with Juliana's vocals dubbed on.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 9, 2019 15:18:03 GMT -5
Yeah, that's what I thought he had said too but thanks for confirming it so I didn't have to do the research.
Moreover, I think "Hands Together" is also a stand out song and I'm guessing that is why he sequenced the CD to have that song last. He obviously saw it as a heartfelt song himself and seemed proud of that one. And to think that he has been sitting on it for some time.
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pj
Tenderfoot
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Post by pj on Mar 10, 2019 19:02:00 GMT -5
Years ago, I read an interview with Bob Stinson, where the interviewer was praising "Unsatisfied." Bob responded, "Yeah, that would've been a great song if he'd ever finished it." Bob was right; "Unsatisfied" is unfinished - there's a lyrical and emotional idea, but it's not fleshed out. On the recording and live the performance, particularly the vocal, sells it, but the lyrics are just a few phrases.
Westerberg has always been reluctant to finish certain songs, whether because he just doesn't know how, or is afraid of revealing too much, or the impulse that inspired what he did get down has passed and he doesn't want to dig it up. When he was in the Replacements, he had a band to push him and to edit his ideas, but he still put out half-finished material, while shelving some of his best songs, like "Don't Get Married."
Nowadays, he still writes some great, emotionally affecting stuff, but, often enough, if it sees the light of day, he will just as soon bury it under something else, as he did on "49:00".
He's always been his own worst enemy, and I don't know what would change that. But I'm glad that occasionally we get a "Hands Together".
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Mar 11, 2019 8:43:17 GMT -5
Years ago, I read an interview with Bob Stinson, where the interviewer was praising "Unsatisfied." Bob responded, "Yeah, that would've been a great song if he'd ever finished it." Bob was right; "Unsatisfied" is unfinished - there's a lyrical and emotional idea, but it's not fleshed out. On the recording and live the performance, particularly the vocal, sells it, but the lyrics are just a few phrases. Westerberg has always been reluctant to finish certain songs, whether because he just doesn't know how, or is afraid of revealing too much, or the impulse that inspired what he did get down has passed and he doesn't want to dig it up. When he was in the Replacements, he had a band to push him and to edit his ideas, but he still put out half-finished material, while shelving some of his best songs, like "Don't Get Married." Nowadays, he still writes some great, emotionally affecting stuff, but, often enough, if it sees the light of day, he will just as soon bury it under something else, as he did on "49:00". He's always been his own worst enemy, and I don't know what would change that. But I'm glad that occasionally we get a "Hands Together".
I agree about Unsatisfied. It's not a great song, musically, but the vocal is incredible, and the emotion and feeling of the performance make it. That's ok though - when those elements are that strong, they make up for everything else. A lesser band would have failed.
I don't think it's that he doesn't know how - he's demonstrated his ability to finish songs throughout his career up until this point. I think he uses that "inspiration has passed" or "first take is the best" or whatever you want to call it as an excuse to not put himself out there.
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