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Post by jimmyrock on Oct 28, 2018 19:49:27 GMT -5
But I'm curious what others think are the songs that hold up just as well to his most lauded earlier work? Where do we rank "Devil Raised A Good Boy"? "Gun Shy", "Crackle and Drag", etc....? Those three fairly forgetable, Gun shy has a neat riff.
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Post by worldclassfad on Oct 28, 2018 22:15:44 GMT -5
I know for a fact that Paul still has it in him to make the record everyone expects from him, but I think one of the reasons we wont see it is just that: we expect it from him. He's made the money, played the game, toured the world, made the records, done it all. He knows if he releases that perfectly polished solo album full of solid songs with a professional drummer, people are just going to say "would have been better as a Replacements album". thats just ridiculous...that he isnt making a good album because some small group of mats only fans would critique it in that fashion, i mean c'mon am I the only one that sees it that way???...... I think the Replacements fan base is bigger than the Paul Westerberg solo fan base, I think if he made that kind of album people would just wonder why he didn't stick it out and make another Replacements album. I don't agree with that, but I believe that's how people would see it. I mean, look at the songs "The Replacements" made for the 2006 best of album. Just sounds like Westerberg with a solo band to me. I think the closest we've really gotten to a "professional" album is the Open Season soundtrack. I think if there was a new Replacements album, it might sound something like "Love You In The Fall".
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Post by jimmyrock on Oct 29, 2018 5:23:52 GMT -5
thats just ridiculous...that he isnt making a good album because some small group of mats only fans would critique it in that fashion, i mean c'mon am I the only one that sees it that way???...... I think the Replacements fan base is bigger than the Paul Westerberg solo fan base, I think if he made that kind of album people would just wonder why he didn't stick it out and make another Replacements album. I don't agree with that, but I believe that's how people would see it. I mean, look at the songs "The Replacements" made for the 2006 best of album. Just sounds like Westerberg with a solo band to me. I think the closest we've really gotten to a "professional" album is the Open Season soundtrack. I think if there was a new Replacements album, it might sound something like "Love You In The Fall". I dont doubt there are more MAts fans than solo fans but you seemed to be making the point that he's choosing to not make a great album because "people are just going to say "would have been better as a Replacements album"....I dont buy that...also I don't buy having the other repalcements play on it would make it better..at this point we'd be talking about just playing with Tommy...
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Post by dee on Oct 29, 2018 6:20:09 GMT -5
Songwriting is cyclical,when you're young you don't realize that and it's like dams bursting.There is also usually a scene or bond that inspires.In the early days you harness the mania,eventually it becomes a craft.Time passes and the scene is no more,you give up the ghost.You are no longer out to prove something to the world,but instead capture something for yourself.
It is surprising though that Paul hasn't put together a band to back him the way Lou Reed did,or Dylan or Stephen Malkmus has.Musicians that understand how he works and can knock out a session or tour and just keep moving forward.By not doing that things will probably remain as they are.
The reunion tour exceeded expectations,I think Paul proved he had more left in the tank than some might have thought.If he chose to put out a set of songs with solid production,being the songwriter and performer he is,I'm sure he could exceed rather than confound expectations.Even working with Scott Litt or Matt Wallace again would be great.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Oct 29, 2018 10:16:47 GMT -5
I think the Replacements fan base is bigger than the Paul Westerberg solo fan base, I think if he made that kind of album people would just wonder why he didn't stick it out and make another Replacements album. I don't agree with that, but I believe that's how people would see it. I mean, look at the songs "The Replacements" made for the 2006 best of album. Just sounds like Westerberg with a solo band to me. I think the closest we've really gotten to a "professional" album is the Open Season soundtrack. I think if there was a new Replacements album, it might sound something like "Love You In The Fall". I dont doubt there are more MAts fans than solo fans but you seemed to be making the point that he's choosing to not make a great album because "people are just going to say "would have been better as a Replacements album"....I dont buy that...also I don't buy having the other repalcements play on it would make it better..at this point we'd be talking about just playing with Tommy... I don't think he's all that hung up on fans specifically, but I do think he really struggles with expectations in general. Tommy referenced it a few times after the reunion, the "baggage" Paul has that he doesn't. If people are looking for a record from one of the greatest songwriters of a generation, that can weigh heavily. It's the nature of the music business. I think that there is a correlation between that struggle and what keeps him away from doing a proper record with a real band and realized songs vs the stuff he has done in recent years which was delivered in such a way that it can't really be compared to his most loved work.
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Post by curmudgeonman on Oct 29, 2018 16:01:53 GMT -5
I don't know...I feel like I'm more generous and patient than most people (at least those who bother to comment) about artists and their work after their "peak"...I'm not expecting them to always top themselves...I'm thrilled when they do something that's even just "pretty good", because they're still working, and because, well, it's still "pretty good"... Oh yeah, when I say that Westerberg peaked at PTMM, it doesn't mean that I don't like his work after that album, of course not. Hell, I enjoyed some of the songs on the Open Season soundtrack, they were fun, listenable songs, kind of like how I feel about his solo career. I might be in the vast minority here, but Westerberg is not part of my all-time top 10 rock songwriters. Nope. He has written and recorded (with The Mats) some of my absolute favorite songs, but IMO, his built-in inconsistency, not with just The Mats, but solo stuff, is just an unfortunate part of his overall career. I think it was Pete Townshend (one of my Top 10), that spoke of early work vs. later, explaining that the life experiences as a young man was initially colored by angst, hunger, uncertainty & confusion, etc, while his later life experiences dominated by marriage, divorce, having kids, dealing with fame, money, lawyers, etc. It became more difficult for him to write from a young rock n roll perspective as the years zipped by, perhaps the reason for his extremely sparse output in recent decades. It is not surprising when he later claims that Quadrophenia was the absolute peak for The Who. I'm in an age group where I see retirement right around the corner, sooner than later. I have owned my own company for close to 15 years, and right now, I'm not trying to out do my earlier accomplishments of my career, just kinda cruising on my past performance in past projects to put a close to it in a few years. And I see the same thing with a lot of older rock bands and performers. Plus the current music business is such that it doesn't exactly reward new songs and material from folks several decades removed from their first impact. With Westerberg, all I hope to expect is a fun or interesting song to pop up. But also I'm pragmatic enough to not to expect a Left of the Dial or I Will Dare out of him.
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Post by towilmusic on Oct 29, 2018 19:49:48 GMT -5
Everything I've heard just has that profound originality to it, so I don't think he's mastered his craft just yet. I think he has much more in him and was super happy to see them open the vaults there w/ the dry wood releases but man, it could have been done much grander.
I'd love to help make that project what it should have become and see Paul become the greatest/grandest Online music distibuter EVER. I have a vision he probably has 200+ unreleased records in that vault and I'd say he'd probably make the Guiness Book for what he has in the vault...
TW- towil.bandcamp.com
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Post by towilmusic on Oct 29, 2018 19:52:28 GMT -5
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Post by jimmyrock on Oct 30, 2018 4:56:26 GMT -5
E. I have a vision he probably has 200+ unreleased records in that vault and I'd say he'd probably make the Guiness Book for what he has in the vault... I dont think that is the case...he has also indicated he records over stuff, maybe cant get vhs tapes anymore....I expect if he had more good stuff we'd have heard it, perhaps the i dont cares will help focus more releases
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Post by jimmyrock on Oct 30, 2018 5:00:56 GMT -5
listening to this, he always gets a great electric guitar sound, vocals and bass are good as well, accoustic guit and drums sound like crap but at least he seems to be playing drums in time
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Post by FreeRider on Oct 30, 2018 10:21:30 GMT -5
But I'm curious what others think are the songs that hold up just as well to his most lauded earlier work? Where do we rank "Devil Raised A Good Boy"? "Gun Shy", "Crackle and Drag", etc....? Those three fairly forgetable, Gun shy has a neat riff. fair enough, but those songs got a lot of attention here on the board, so somebody in the fan base likes them! so what holds up then from his post Mats work? Anything? Nothing? Jer mentioned Eventually seemed to be his most relaxed, unforced effort. And again, is it even fair to compare the output from different eras, despite the peak having been 30 years ago?
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Post by FreeRider on Oct 30, 2018 10:43:21 GMT -5
I dont doubt there are more MAts fans than solo fans but you seemed to be making the point that he's choosing to not make a great album because "people are just going to say "would have been better as a Replacements album"....I dont buy that...also I don't buy having the other repalcements play on it would make it better..at this point we'd be talking about just playing with Tommy... I don't think he's all that hung up on fans specifically, but I do think he really struggles with expectations in general. Tommy referenced it a few times after the reunion, the "baggage" Paul has that he doesn't. If people are looking for a record from one of the greatest songwriters of a generation, that can weigh heavily. It's the nature of the music business. I think that there is a correlation between that struggle and what keeps him away from doing a proper record with a real band and realized songs vs the stuff he has done in recent years which was delivered in such a way that it can't really be compared to his most loved work. I kind of agree that while we're picking apart his career and songwriting abilities thru out the years, he shouldn't be concerned with what we fans think or what the paid critics think. As someone who dabbles in trying to write/play/record my own music, I think you do have to be true to yourself in what you can create. It is annoying to hear from someone you don't trust or know telling you what you should've done better..... And yet, there is a bit of self indulgence on Paul's part to always be seeking the immediacy of the moment with the "first take is the best" and take it or leave it, if you're the audience. And he's certainly earned the privilege to do what he wants. I remember how John Doe and Exene were talking about Ray Manzarek after he passed. They recounted a funny story about how they were screwing off in the studio and flubbing things up, wasting Manzarek's time. Finally, he said, "Okay, this is it, we're gonna roll tape again. Are you sure this is how you wanna do it? Remember, this becomes forever." And it dawned on them that they didn't want to put out an album filled with mistakes or sloppiness that they'd hear and cringe 10 years down the road and wished they had sounded better. There's a balancing act of sounding the best, recording the best you can, and getting that immediacy too without endless takes. I suppose that Paul doesn't have a trusted someone to give feedback for him. But moreover, I'll still gladly take whatever he can give us. if he's wary of being compared to his past work and being burned, then I'll gladly accept the basement material for what it is. Despite the production values, the songs, man, it's the songs we know he's capable of doing that keeps me coming back to him.
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Post by worldclassfad on Oct 30, 2018 19:32:46 GMT -5
I think he feels wronged from the years of being put through the major label grinder. Producers and record company people telling him how famous he's gonna be and how many albums he's gonna sell and then not selling shit. Isn't there a part in Trouble Boys where Paul talks about being ready to kill himself by the time the touring for Eventually was over? And then he trusted ANOTHER label and got fucked again. He hasn't worked with a producer since, and 90% of the material has been recorded in the basement. Also rarely tours.
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Post by jimmyrock on Oct 31, 2018 5:35:05 GMT -5
Those three fairly forgetable, Gun shy has a neat riff. so what holds up then from his post Mats work? Anything? Nothing? the two from the singles soundstrack are great and have legs....there are several on 14 songs that are up there, Things, runaway wind, knocking on mine....you know what song I always loved is from the dvd and Im not sure what its even called but its somehting like "all my fault", great rocker...Born for me is a good one The first Grandpaboy album or EP was solid poppy rock, maybe one clunker
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Post by jimmyrock on Oct 31, 2018 5:37:43 GMT -5
if he's wary of being compared to his past work and being burned, then I'll gladly accept the basement material for what it is. Despite the production values, the songs, man, it's the songs we know he's capable of doing that keeps me coming back to him. I'm on board with this....but can he just not play the drums?
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Post by jimmyrock on Oct 31, 2018 5:39:09 GMT -5
I think he feels wronged from the years of being put through the major label grinder. Producers and record company people telling him how famous he's gonna be and how many albums he's gonna sell and then not selling shit. Isn't there a part in Trouble Boys where Paul talks about being ready to kill himself by the time the touring for Eventually was over? And then he trusted ANOTHER label and got fucked again. He hasn't worked with a producer since, and 90% of the material has been recorded in the basement. Also rarely tours. and he probably doesnt have the financial "need" to make a record that sells to the extent that is even possible now a days....
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Post by teddinard on Oct 31, 2018 7:45:49 GMT -5
I think there are great things from every part of his career.
I guess if I had to, I'd say the peak with the Replacements as far as songwriting goes is Tim. But every single record they did has impressive songs, even Don't Tell a Soul.
And I truly love parts of the solo career. I probably care more than average about lyrics, and I'd say as a lyricist, he's never done better than "Something in My life is Missing" on 49:00, and a couple of the songs about marriage on Stereo ("Boring Enormous" kills me, as does "Nothing to No One"). There are numerous other highlights scattered around.
I agree he would be better with a band, a drummer. But he's accomplished a lot on his own too.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Oct 31, 2018 9:10:31 GMT -5
if he's wary of being compared to his past work and being burned, then I'll gladly accept the basement material for what it is. Despite the production values, the songs, man, it's the songs we know he's capable of doing that keeps me coming back to him. I'm on board with this....but can he just not play the drums? Yeah, I keep coming back too, and no matter what I'll always check out the new stuff and buy it to support him. The difference is after two or three listens I'm done. There's great songs in there, but they're not great yet. A good song rarely ends when the words and chords are first put to paper and rushed to tape. It takes a little extra effort to refine and work into something great. Sometimes it's a quick couple tweaks and sometimes it takes months, and there's a balance between spontaneity and over-working something. To a lot of songwriters, that's where the real magic happens, and also the really challenging part. But Paul's focus seems to be almost all on that spontaneity and very little on that refinement. For me, most of the art and his gift are quickly lost without that extra work. Until he's ready/motivated/committed to delivering fully realized songs, his songwriting won't come close to his earlier stuff.
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Post by FreeRider on Oct 31, 2018 15:42:47 GMT -5
I think we're all in agreement about Paul's drumming and his over reliance on the high hat, ha ha! And if he could just change his drum pattern once in awhile...
All good points by everyone. But the thing I kept thinking about was "How Can You Like Him?" because "after all, it's just me". The peak years of the Mats, Paul's solo work with a label, the basement material---it's all just him because he's the songwriter (of course, he had help from the rest of the band to make his songs into something). He's all of it and what a career it's been, even if he isn't a household name.
I agree that the extra work needs to be done on polishing the song ideas (something that I don't always do because I also work full time and it's just a weekend hobby for me), but what if he actually is spending the time, laboring over his songs? That would mean the muse is leaving him, the magic is dwindling...
OR he is writing really to please himself, as he should, but the symbiotic relationship with us fans is maybe a little frayed. Even Neil Young, of all people, is aware of the relationship between artist and fans. He was asked what he owes his audience, his fans, and he said something like, "Everything, but I don't actually owe them anything like money. Another album I guess?" he admits he writes to please himself first but also realized that how lonely that is if you never shared it with anyone. And like Paul, Neil likes to work fast (and record live with Crazy Horse and try not to do too many overdubs) and not do endless take after take in the studio.
But yes, I'll keep coming back for Paul.
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Post by holeinthedrapes on Oct 31, 2018 18:58:32 GMT -5
On the topic of songwriting, I remember hearing a Bob Seger interview on WNEW in New York back in ‘92 shortly after Springsteen had released the dual albums Human Touch and Lucky Town. He spoke about how he was amazed that Bruce still had enough to say to make an album because he was shot as a songwriter. Some people have the interest and ability to continue to find something to say, some don’t.
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