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Post by jimmyrock on Jul 6, 2018 21:51:33 GMT -5
which? That Paul is a witty and sophisticated writer or that GnR didnt display a sense of humor? Wit and humor Replacements, lack thereof Guns and Roses. And yeah, lyrics of the Replacements are much more sophisticated than those of Guns and Roses, notwithstanding "Gary's Got a Boner." Note on that, their THIRD album also contained, Seen Your Video, Tommy gets His Tonsils Out and a KISS cover...Im just saying GnR made a historic first record with Appetite...I guess writing aside |
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Post by teddinard on Jul 6, 2018 23:27:50 GMT -5
Yeah it's interesting to think about the really big "historic" records of my lifetime.
They'd include Frampton Comes Alive, Rumours, Hotel California, Thriller, Appetite for Destruction, Nevermind, etc. I must be forgetting some.
l like some of these more than others, of course. But they've never meant as much to me as much "smaller" records. I'm sure it's some kind of personality flaw of mine.
But the Replacements records were pretty much designed for people like me (us). They never were going to be big in that way.
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Post by anarkissed on Jul 6, 2018 23:32:08 GMT -5
"Welcome to the Jungle" is actually pretty solid lyrically as well as musically...(Incidentally, I find the structure and arrangement of that song to be world class...Particularly, that bridge that breaks down to those guitar arppegios - "And when you're high" - just before the lead)...I was gonna cite AC/DC as a band who wrote good songs that were strong musically with throwaway lyrics, but, actually, things like "T.N.T" are pretty good on both counts...I think Chuck Berry is the best example of a songwriter where you just appreciate the music first, but a lot of his songs are really clever lyrically...("No Particular Place to Go", "You Never Can Tell", "School Days")...I appreciate people like those even more, because they were working from such a narrow palette...A long time ago, when I was pretending to write songs, I came up with what I intended to be a parody of party rock...People liked it...More than most of what I thought was better...I finally realized that people liked it because it was so obvious...You know, something like "Rock and Roll All Nite", there's a certain level of genius, there, as well as "Positively 4th Street"...
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Post by jimmyrock on Jul 7, 2018 6:39:53 GMT -5
Yeah it's interesting to think about the really big "historic" records of my lifetime. They'd include Frampton Comes Alive, Rumours, Hotel California, Thriller, Appetite for Destruction, Nevermind, etc. I must be forgetting some. l like some of these more than others, of course. But they've never meant as much to me as much "smaller" records. I'm sure it's some kind of personality flaw of mine. Do you think we just get tired of them as was previously mentioned? I think thats the case for me. |
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Post by jimmyrock on Jul 7, 2018 6:43:05 GMT -5
But the Replacements records were pretty much designed for people like me (us). They never were going to be big in that way. see I refuse to accept that. ..it drives me crazy that they couldnt put it or keep it together and REM just hung up the skates recently...and I really should say "they" becasue its 100% Paul..he still cant/wont do it but maybe he has no need, I think he said he was set for life after the moivie soundtrack.... |
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Post by jimmyrock on Jul 7, 2018 6:46:34 GMT -5
"Welcome to the Jungle" is actually pretty solid lyrically as well as musically...(Incidentally, I find the structure and arrangement of that song to be world class...Particularly, that bridge that breaks down to those guitar arppegios - "And when you're high" - just before the lead)...I was gonna cite AC/DC as a band who wrote good songs that were strong musically with throwaway lyrics, but, actually, things like "T.N.T" are pretty good on both counts...I think Chuck Berry is the best example of a songwriter where you just appreciate the music first, but a lot of his songs are really clever lyrically...("No Particular Place to Go", "You Never Can Tell", "School Days")...I appreciate people like those even more, because they were working from such a narrow palette...A long time ago, when I was pretending to write songs, I came up with what I intended to be a parody of party rock...People liked it...More than most of what I thought was better...I finally realized that people liked it because it was so obvious...You know, something like "Rock and Roll All Nite", there's a certain level of genius, there, as well as "Positively 4th Street"... that is well said. Chuck Berry, pick your key, play a 1 4 5 progression with that same double stops, with some different lyrics and hes got a shit tons of songs that are all really catchy/good.... but sometimes you want a ballad and sometimes you wnat to dance or rock... |
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Jul 7, 2018 6:47:29 GMT -5
Few bands had the sense of humor that The Replacements had, and almost no one took themselves less seriously. While that is an interesting point of comparison, it's not a knock on GNR that they took themselves seriously and didn't act like clowns.
Lyrically, it's certainly fair to say that Paul's best stuff was better than anything GNR did - they trumped GNR there, but GNR's lyrics weren't bad, especially for the genre. Paul's best stuff trumps just about any rock band, any genre. But he has some stinkers too, and like Paradise City, not every moment was lyrically brilliant.
And while GNR had elements of metal in their sound and look, they weren't a metal band. There's some crossover there, and some debate, but by the time Appetite came out metal had become a parody of itself, and the metal bands didn't act, look, or sound like GNR. They never did.
GNR worked really hard to write/arrange/record great songs and even into the Illusion records - where the material wasn't nearly as strong and they'd lost the soul of the band - they put way more effort in than the cookie cutter metal bands of the late 80s. It's not fair to lump them in with that. Like Anarkissed said (paraphrasing), Welcome to the Jungle is a masterpiece in arrangement - and it deserved to be the hit that it was.
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Post by teddinard on Jul 7, 2018 8:34:28 GMT -5
Yeah it's interesting to think about the really big "historic" records of my lifetime. They'd include Frampton Comes Alive, Rumours, Hotel California, Thriller, Appetite for Destruction, Nevermind, etc. I must be forgetting some. l like some of these more than others, of course. But they've never meant as much to me as much "smaller" records. I'm sure it's some kind of personality flaw of mine. Do you think we just get tired of them as was previously mentioned? I think thats the case for me. I was distant from them--not "tired" exactly--even while they were happening. They were so big, it was like you couldn't really hear them for what they were. I remember when Thriller was out, and it was coming out of every car, every dorm window, every boom box. It's not easy to feel intimate with something like that. It's like trying to look at the Mona Lisa as just an excellent portrait. Or listening to Beethoven's 5th symphony in a fresh way as if you've never heard it before. Anyway I agree with most of what's been said. There are a million kinds of great song. AC/DC songs are funny and have a blunt wit about them. Chuck Berry has great lyrics that come out so easily that you hardly notice how well done they are. And I think of somebody who is the peak of rock and roll to me like Little Richard. Are his songs witty or sophisticated? In most ways, no. But there is humor there. Or the Ramones. Their lyrics are often minimalist but they are quite sophisticated. They're almost like an art project--you have to think about what kind of comment they're making. I put songs like "Gary's Got a Boner," "God Damn Job," etc. in that Ramones category, with their own Westerberg twist. |
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Post by raccoon on Jul 7, 2018 12:12:08 GMT -5
which? That Paul is a witty and sophisticated writer or that GnR didnt display a sense of humor? Wit and humor Replacements, lack thereof Guns and Roses. And yeah, lyrics of the Replacements are much more sophisticated than those of Guns and Roses, notwithstanding "Gary's Got a Boner." As to whether wit etc. is "required," as you say in your other post, I'm not even sure what that would mean. Cole Porter's great songs are witty--it's hard to imagine an unwitty Cole Porter. Many of the Great American Songbook songs would be lifeless without the subtlety and energy of the lyrics. And other celebrated songwriters--Bob Dylan, Elvis Costello, Leonard Cohen, the list goes on and on--are both witty and sophisticated. Of course there are great songs without that layer. But Replacements' songs happen to have it, and Guns and Roses songs don't. So if we're into contrasts, that is one, regardless of whether or not it means much to you. It's definitely something I value in Westerberg's songs. It makes them much more emotionally powerful to me than Guns and Roses songs. In honor of Wimbledon: point goes to Teddi. 15-love. |
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Post by jimmyrock on Jul 7, 2018 12:45:49 GMT -5
Wit and humor Replacements, lack thereof Guns and Roses. And yeah, lyrics of the Replacements are much more sophisticated than those of Guns and Roses, notwithstanding "Gary's Got a Boner." As to whether wit etc. is "required," as you say in your other post, I'm not even sure what that would mean. Cole Porter's great songs are witty--it's hard to imagine an unwitty Cole Porter. Many of the Great American Songbook songs would be lifeless without the subtlety and energy of the lyrics. And other celebrated songwriters--Bob Dylan, Elvis Costello, Leonard Cohen, the list goes on and on--are both witty and sophisticated. Of course there are great songs without that layer. But Replacements' songs happen to have it, and Guns and Roses songs don't. So if we're into contrasts, that is one, regardless of whether or not it means much to you. It's definitely something I value in Westerberg's songs. It makes them much more emotionally powerful to me than Guns and Roses songs. In honor of Wimbledon: point goes to Teddi. 15-love. wit as in clever sure yes, wit as in funny was I dont see as required which was what I took from the context of the comment "Did Guns and Roses have a sense of humor? And Westerberg is a witty and sophisticated writer" |
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Post by anarkissed on Jul 7, 2018 13:24:07 GMT -5
>>Do you think we just get tired of them as was previously mentioned?<<
Yes. I was never able to just sit down and listen to "Hotel California", for example, and have my own opinion of it, because it was always playing or someone was always telling me how great it was. I came to resent it without even really hearing it or having my own reaction to it, because it always felt like somebody was trying to get me to join their church.
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Post by anarkissed on Jul 7, 2018 13:25:36 GMT -5
it's not a knock on GNR that they took themselves seriously and didn't act like clowns. I'd have to say they took themselves seriously and still acted like clowns. |
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Post by FreeRider on Jul 7, 2018 15:07:46 GMT -5
"Welcome to the Jungle" is actually pretty solid lyrically as well as musically...(Incidentally, I find the structure and arrangement of that song to be world class...Particularly, that bridge that breaks down to those guitar arppegios - "And when you're high" - just before the lead)...I was gonna cite AC/DC as a band who wrote good songs that were strong musically with throwaway lyrics, but, actually, things like "T.N.T" are pretty good on both counts...I think Chuck Berry is the best example of a songwriter where you just appreciate the music first, but a lot of his songs are really clever lyrically...("No Particular Place to Go", "You Never Can Tell", "School Days")...I appreciate people like those even more, because they were working from such a narrow palette...A long time ago, when I was pretending to write songs, I came up with what I intended to be a parody of party rock...People liked it...More than most of what I thought was better...I finally realized that people liked it because it was so obvious...You know, something like "Rock and Roll All Nite", there's a certain level of genius, there, as well as "Positively 4th Street"... that is well said. Chuck Berry, pick your key, play a 1 4 5 progression with that same double stops, with some different lyrics and hes got a shit tons of songs that are all really catchy/good.... but sometimes you want a ballad and sometimes you wnat to dance or rock... Man, I love Chuck Berry. You guys are spot on---the music strikes you first, but then it's the lyrics and the meters of his rhymes....and it's completely an American ideal put down on vinyl. big cars, the open road, and endless chances of catching up to Maybelline at the top of the hill. As I was a motorvatin' over the hill
saw Maybelline in a coup de ville....just genius, to me. but I digress. Back to the topic, as you were..... |
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Post by raccoon on Jul 7, 2018 15:16:57 GMT -5
Maybe we can all just agree the GnR rocks harder. If you wanna rock you might wanna reach for GnR, Ac/dc, or Sabbath. If you want some great music with a little more thought then the Mats do the trick.
I was gonna say that GnR is more visceral but then I found this definition for the word:
'relating to deep inward feelings rather than to the intellect'
The Replacements seem to hit BOTH of these spots at once - touching deep inward feelings and the intellect.
GnR? They seem to nail primal senses more than the Mats.
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Post by teddinard on Jul 7, 2018 15:49:15 GMT -5
In honor of Wimbledon: point goes to Teddi. 15-love. wit as in clever sure yes, wit as in funny was I dont see as required which was what I took from the context of the comment "Did Guns and Roses have a sense of humor? And Westerberg is a witty and sophisticated writer" I agree. Sense of humor, wit, and sophistication are all distinct things. They are often linked, though. There are often all three in the Replacements' lyrics, sometimes just two or one out of the three. So "Gary's Got a Boner" isn't sophisticated, but it's humorous in a juvenile sort of way. The line "Gary's got a soft-on" isn't exactly witty either, but it does show in rudimentary form Westerberg's love of playing with language, saying something unexpected. Whatever else their virtues, you don't hear that kind of thing much in Guns and Roses songs. I'm not saying, I repeat, that all good songs must have it. But it can be a good thing, and it's part of why I have a lot of respect for Westerberg and why his songs affect me. Also, Westerberg never (or only very rarely) strikes me as trying to be clever for cleverness's sake. I hope this comment doesn't irritate anybody, but often the wordplay in Elvis Costello's songs comes across that way to me. With Westerberg, the play with words almost always comes deep from within the motivation of the song. It's not just an ornament. If I had to name the one thing that makes him a great lyricist, it's that. |
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Post by taketheskyway on Jul 10, 2018 13:36:26 GMT -5
>>Do you think we just get tired of them as was previously mentioned?<< Yes. I was never able to just sit down and listen to "Hotel California", for example, and have my own opinion of it, because it was always playing or someone was always telling me how great it was. I came to resent it without even really hearing it or having my own reaction to it, because it always felt like somebody was trying to get me to join their church. I don't think I've ever posted on here before but I wanted to comment on this because it's a very interesting point. I'm seventeen years old so I wasn't around for the peak of bands like the eagles popularity, but of course I've heard songs like Hotel California and the like before. A few months ago I sat down and listened to the Hotel California album in full for the first time and was absolutely blown away by how good it actually was. I truly do think part of this was because I was able to discover it by myself and I wasn't fully exposed to it before. |
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Jul 10, 2018 16:26:44 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever posted on here before but I wanted to comment on this because it's a very interesting point. I'm seventeen years old so I wasn't around for the peak of bands like the eagles popularity, but of course I've heard songs like Hotel California and the like before. A few months ago I sat down and listened to the Hotel California album in full for the first time and was absolutely blown away by how good it actually was. I truly do think part of this was because I was able to discover it by myself and I wasn't fully exposed to it before. Yeah, this is a good point. A song like Hotel California, Free Bird, Stairway to Heaven, Teen Spirit, Jungle, whatever... you can't blame the song for being overplayed. You can be so sick of it you wanna puke, but it's not a reflection of the quality of the song. I'm sick of all those songs, but taketheskyway (welcome, by the way) is right - they're much more palatable within the context of the record. Led Zeppelin IV is a pretty easy listen, but hearing Stairway or Rock and Roll on classic rock radio is nauseating. Hotel California is a really good record on just about every level. It seems to be where 90% of the venom against the Eagles comes from - just being way overplayed. (then there's the catch phrase from the movie, the punk-led backlash against FM rock, and finally their perfectionist approach). I think it's similar for GNR with a lot of people, especially Appetite. |
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Schecky
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401-Fichier non trouv
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Post by Schecky on Jul 11, 2018 15:53:59 GMT -5
Oh how I love a good discussion board battle on a hi-jacked thread! Also love Axl's racist, xenophobic, homophobic lyrics: "Police and niggers, that's right Get outta my way Don't need to buy none of your Gold chains today... Immigrants and faggots They make no sense to me They come to our country And think they'll do as they please Like start some mini-Iran Or spread some fucking disease" Based on these lyrics I am guessing that maybe the enlightened boys in Guns will take some of the $999 each they are charging for their new bloated box set (what did they make 2 and half albums? and do you even count that piece of shit thing called 'Chinese Democracy?)and help build a wall with our fearless leader. no defense for that from me. they made one great album. but what a great one it is. I believe that song is written in character. |
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Post by raccoon on Jul 12, 2018 19:27:37 GMT -5
Speaking of GnR. Did anybody read Duff's memoir or see the movie/show called 'It So Easy: and Other Lies'?
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Post by Hagbard on Jul 12, 2018 19:46:40 GMT -5
Speaking of GnR. Did anybody read Duff's memoir or see the movie/show called 'It So Easy: and Other Lies'? I read Duffs book years back. I really liked it, found it quite inspiring when he got sober. Plus he briefly mentions opening for The Mats back he was still living in Seattle. Never saw the movie. |
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