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Post by hudson99 on Feb 26, 2016 12:47:30 GMT -5
Mehr will be on my podcast tonight (2/26) at 7 pm ET at realpunkradio.com - it will also be in itunes within an hour or so after the conclusion, and I'll post a link to a transcription of some of it I'm going to submit to the newspaper where I'm a freelancer.
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Post by oldmatsfan on Feb 27, 2016 11:58:35 GMT -5
Mine arrived Wednesday, earlier than Amazon had indicated. Been so busy this week I haven't even had a chance to crack the cover.
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Mar 1, 2016 10:23:21 GMT -5
Finished the book last night. Stop here if you're worried about spoilers.
Very well written, very thorough, and a great balance of the good, the bad and the ugly. It felt unbiased, both harsh and complementary when the story deserved one or the other.
I've read a ton of rock and roll books - more than I can count. Some are written better than others. Some feel like they're about the 10th grade level, especially some of the autobiographies. Sometimes I wonder how much the editor was paid, and if he even looked at it. Others are just great - great vocabulary and flow, written in the voice of the author (Steven Tyler and Keith Richards' books both come to mind as exceptional). Almost all of the rock books, however, follow the same basic trajectory, sort of like VH1 Behind The Music series. Some are better than others, but they're all somewhat similar.
Trouble Boys was unique in that it felt more like the tragedy of Bob Stinson for so much of it. The Replacements were almost the background story to Bob's life and suffering. I knew the guy was a mess and had a rough life, but I didn't know it was to that extent, and Mehr really drove it home, especially around the impact his issues had on the band and all involved. So much of it felt like the perspective was around the impact of Bob by either being there or not being there anymore. I think this not only made the book a more interesting read, but it also invoked a lot more emotion and set the book apart for other rock bios. I love the Slim era, but I've always championed the Bob era as the real Mats. That's another discussion, but the book, the stories and the players mostly seem to agree.
The other sort of take-away for me, as discussed earlier in this thread, was what complete assholes they all were so much of the time. We all know about the repeated blown chances and the little band that could have but never did, but the extent of the hostility and self-sabotage is staggering. It goes way beyond a gang-mentality or us vs. them or getting drunk and playing some shitty shows. A lot of it was just downright mean. I've never heard of any band - GNR, Oasis, etc - work so hard to piss so many people off - and then just sink into depression when opportunities pass them by.
And finally, the details, the stories - were all just so great. I remembered a couple things differently, like the 86 Ann Arbor show. I remember Bob being about 5 songs late, but once he came out they were the best band on the planet until the end. I don't remember the decay into a mess they talk about. Sadly, there's no known recording of that show to verify one or the other memory (even though a girl 2 seats down from me was recording it). Funny I'd always heard they were fired from the Petty tour, but according to the book they did the whole run. Loved how they talked about the Pine Knob show as one of the best from that tour - I always said that was a great set. And I never made the connection of the 2 dogs on the cover of ASD to Paul and Tommy, though it's so obvious now. I'll never look at it the same.
It's the book we've been waiting for forever, exactly what we asked for. However, between the Bob Stinson tragedy, the band's behavior and demeanor, and the repeated wake of destruction they left in their wake, and their propensity to turn around and bitch about REM's success immediately after, it was not a fun or feel-good read. For me it was very much like an excellent and really intense but depressing-as-hell movie. I'm glad I made it though, it was great art, and the subject is close to my heart, but damn I am glad it's over.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 2, 2016 11:17:29 GMT -5
....The other sort of take-away for me, as discussed earlier in this thread, was what complete assholes they all were so much of the time..... but the extent of the hostility and self-sabotage is staggering. It goes way beyond a gang-mentality or us vs. them or getting drunk and playing some shitty shows. A lot of it was just downright mean.... I haven't started the book yet, but regarding the hostility and meanness, do you think there was this anger in them because they felt like (or were) outsiders? And how does one reconcile that with where they are today?
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Mar 2, 2016 13:40:52 GMT -5
....The other sort of take-away for me, as discussed earlier in this thread, was what complete assholes they all were so much of the time..... but the extent of the hostility and self-sabotage is staggering. It goes way beyond a gang-mentality or us vs. them or getting drunk and playing some shitty shows. A lot of it was just downright mean.... I haven't started the book yet, but regarding the hostility and meanness, do you think there was this anger in them because they felt like (or were) outsiders? And how does one reconcile that with where they are today? I don't think it was because they felt like outsiders. I think it's why they were outsiders. I think it was because they were scared shitless of success, or more likely, failure. The book certainly throws that theory around, but the band, more often than not, chalks it up to doing what they want, how they want. Punk-rock non-conformity. There's some denial going on there, but I suspect it's not lost on them that they purposely blew more chances than they ever deserved. The dichotomy is that they just didn't seem to get why REM got all the breaks. Like "we're not going to do that shit! No way! Go F*** yourself! Hey - why did REM's record just sell 2 million copies? Why is MTV playing their video 100 times a day? That's bullshit!" All the while, REM pretty much played the game on their own terms and managed to keep their integrity and make the music they wanted. It seemed like all the Replacements really had to do in addition to the great songs they were writing and the amount of touring they were doing was not be assholes and play shows like they had the ability to. They never manged to both at the right times - and it was calculated. As to where they are today - well, going back to the reunion and the tour last year, it was pretty clear that they were trying - the shows were pretty consistently good, but Paul was pretty miserable about the whole thing from the start, and it just got worse as it went along. He's disillusioned by the industry that "somehow" punished him but rewarded REM (or a hundred bands that came after) and felt like he was whoring himself and the legacy. So it seems to me that the same issues he was struggling with in 89 and 91 are still there, but he's gotten better at doing his job. 2 of the 3 shows I saw last year definitely felt like he was doing a job. It's pretty complicated, as you'll see when you read it. There's all kinds of reasons why and how, but what I took from the book (about their legacy) more than anything was that they did almost everything they possibly could to make it impossible for them to succeed, especially when the stakes got high. It was tough to read about it - over and over again, every chapter. I don't think you can put the book down and say "Why haven't more people heard of The Replacements? Why aren't (weren't) they appreciated more?" Hell of a story though.
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Post by anarkissed on Mar 2, 2016 20:41:35 GMT -5
As for Paul, I always got the impression that all he really cared about was the creative act of songwriting...Recording, playing live, touring, making videos, promotions, interviews, I think he not only disliked but actively hated and resented...I think that's also why he was so willing to just throw a lotta songs away...Once he'd written them, he wasn't really interested in them anymore...
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Post by Veets on Mar 3, 2016 11:38:23 GMT -5
I'm two thirds of the way through and have mixed feelings about it. Mehr did a fantastic job with it. It's Impeccably researched and well written, but it's a warts and all look at the band and Paul and Tommy were even bigger dicks than I imagined. Westerberg comes off as a callous bully time after time. I certainly knew he had the capacity for that, but I didn't realize it was such a cornerstone of who he is. Callus Bully could have been a better band name than "The I Don't Cares"
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gravy
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Post by gravy on Mar 3, 2016 13:06:15 GMT -5
Congrats Kathy on the acknowledgment from Bob in the book. Well deserved!
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Post by Kathy on Mar 3, 2016 13:36:36 GMT -5
Congrats Kathy on the acknowledgment from Bob in the book. Well deserved! Thanks, it was really nice of him to mention me and Matt, we've been at this a long time
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 3, 2016 15:17:53 GMT -5
I haven't started the book yet, but regarding the hostility and meanness, do you think there was this anger in them because they felt like (or were) outsiders? And how does one reconcile that with where they are today? I don't think it was because they felt like outsiders. I think it's why they were outsiders.... It's pretty complicated, as you'll see when you read it. There's all kinds of reasons why and how, but what I took from the book (about their legacy) more than anything was that they did almost everything they possibly could to make it impossible for them to succeed, especially when the stakes got high. It was tough to read about it - over and over again, every chapter. I don't think you can put the book down and say "Why haven't more people heard of The Replacements? Why aren't (weren't) they appreciated more?" Hell of a story though. Will probably start the book this weekend when I get time. Thanks for that analysis, it'll be interesting to see if I come away with the same or differing view point.
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Post by BronxTeacher on Mar 4, 2016 8:36:00 GMT -5
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Mar 4, 2016 12:00:23 GMT -5
As for Paul, I always got the impression that all he really cared about was the creative act of songwriting...Recording, playing live, touring, making videos, promotions, interviews, I think he not only disliked but actively hated and resented...I think that's also why he was so willing to just throw a lotta songs away...Once he'd written them, he wasn't really interested in them anymore... I don't think that's all he cared about, especially early on, but it certainly seems to have morphed into that now. I got the impression from the book that he didn't really start to take himself really seriously as a songwriter until everyone started telling him he was one - around the Let It Be record especially. Not like it wasn't important to him, but once he started to hear it over and over it seems like he sorta started drinking the kool-aid, so to speak, and that too played into the decline of the band. Something like "let's face it, no one wants to hear Chris' or Tommy's songs" was mentioned. Early on I think they were way into playing shows and touring. Over time it got tedious (as it does) and at times downright miserable (the Petty tour). The videos and interviews became a real (self-imposed) burden for them, but by the time they were making "real" videos - I'll Be You being the first one that really felt like part of the establishment they loathed - they were barely functioning anyway, and everything was burden. It's a real surprise that ASD even happened. So, fast-forward through the solo years, the low-point during and just after the Suicane record, then the sputtering end to the reunion shows, and yeah, he seems perfectly content recording first-takes in his basement and just as content to become immediately bored and destroying them. And as soon as we think that, in typical Paul fashion, he puts out the I Don't Cares and seems to be jamming with Josh again, so who the hell knows what he's thinking? There's something there that's driving him to work with other people and release music still. He's nothing if not unpredictable and self-contradicting. Very difficult to nail down, and that's part of the mystique that make him (and them) so great.
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patty
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Post by patty on Mar 4, 2016 18:45:44 GMT -5
I have to say Veets, your quote: Callus Bully could have been a better band name than "The I Don't Cares" pretty much hits the nail on the head. I started the book and am re thinking PW completely. With the book, the new band, the awfulness of trying too hard, it doesn't seem that all the should searching in the music has amounted to much in his character...he's beginning to feel like a fraud and it's all been a wonderful lie...but I don't think he's going to get by on those.
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Post by teddinard on Mar 4, 2016 19:00:16 GMT -5
Read the book. Westerberg doesn't seem so bad to me, though I've known some real dicks in my time. He's a pussycat by comparison.
He and Tommy just had to blow off a little steam every once in a while. No biggie.
And despite what some Gloomy Gus might say, the songs remain great. That's what really matters. A little collateral damage is inevitable.
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Post by anarkissed on Mar 4, 2016 22:39:23 GMT -5
O.K...I'm up to the recording sessions for DTAS...Paul and Tommy are frequently jerks, assholes, dumbasses, idiots, and dickheads...(And I have a really low tolerance for that)...(By the way, major surprise to me was that Slim was kinda dickhead, too...I'd always pegged him as "happy-go-lucky"...) But the only really "cruel" incident I've come across is if Paul actually told an attempting recovering substance abusing Bob Stinson to "take a drink or get off my fucking stage"...Which would just be reprehensible...Does it get worse later on? Also noticing that, despite the taunts, and insults, and boorish behavior, and deliberate provocations, these guys never really faced much serious reaction...In other words, how did they do all this crap without getting punched in the face? I think it would've really helped...I've never really been in a serious fistfight in my life...But in my 20's and 30's, I had a bad temper, and a certain streak of fatalism...I've pulled knives on people...I've brought shotguns to work thinking I might have to use them...I was occasionally prepared to die if it was necessary to make a point...I'm not outright saying I could've taken Paul or Tommy, but I think I could have definitely made the next two or three days extremely unpleasant...And as for Slim, shit, I could just point a high-speed fan at that dude and blow him into a corner with a broken ankle...Also, despite their reputation as world-class drinkers, seems to me, the problem was actually that these guys couldn't handle their booze...If you're falling down and throwing up, that's junior high school shit...Real drinkers pace themselves, and quaff down massive volumes without becoming a cartoon, or getting arrested...Pretty sure I could've drank any one of these lightweights under the table...Not that that's anything to be really proud of...
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Post by Veets on Mar 5, 2016 11:32:34 GMT -5
The official word seems to be that Chris Mars didn't participate because he's moved on to his art. Who else thinks that the real reason is that Chris plans to do his own book some day? I bet that guy has notebooks full of stuff, including sketches and personal diary kind of writing.
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ih8music
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Post by ih8music on Mar 5, 2016 15:59:08 GMT -5
I really think Chris has moved on. Whatever dirt he may have once felt compelled to share came out in his solo records. But since then, over the past 15-20 years, it's all been about his artwork, which is really fucking incredible and only getting better. There's no reason for him to look back now.
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Post by TomT on Mar 5, 2016 22:24:49 GMT -5
I really think Chris has moved on. Whatever dirt he may have once felt compelled to share came out in his solo records. But since then, over the past 15-20 years, it's all been about his artwork, which is really fucking incredible and only getting better. There's no reason for him to look back now. He probably didn't want all the new attention that would come his way asking about the past. It doesn't seem like he enjoyed the Mats experience too much past 1984 or so. It became the Paul and Tommy show.
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Post by ClamsCasino on Mar 6, 2016 0:26:15 GMT -5
The official word seems to be that Chris Mars didn't participate because he's moved on to his art. Who else thinks that the real reason is that Chris plans to do his own book some day? I bet that guy has notebooks full of stuff, including sketches and personal diary kind of writing. He has an unpublished memoir. It's cited as a source in previous biographies. I think the Michael Azzerad book mentions it frequently.
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Post by Kathy on Mar 6, 2016 13:24:17 GMT -5
Whatever thoughts that people come away from the book with re: Paul, I give him and Tommy a lot of credit for participating and for being so candid. Giving up control of the story of a hugely important part of your life to someone else takes a lot of guts. They could have opted not to participate or held back on what they talked about or gone for another type of book that was less "warts and all".
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