Nirvana-Mats

[wecantgetanybetter]

Looking back however many years now, what did Nirvana really have to do with the Replacements?

My impression is Cobain didn't acknowledge much of a connection or influence. Westerberg seemed to see one but let it slide at some point. I hear something, maybe, but the bands and their music are too iconic or familiar for me to judge or really hear it or not.

[hudson99]

The Replacements mixed with Husker Du combined to become the Pixies, which with added gloss became Nirvana.

[brianlux]

I think the big difference is geography and location. Seattle and especially Aberdeen, WA are cool and damp/ cool and damp and coastal influenced. Minneapolis, MN is cold and dry/ muggy and hot and riverbound and lake influenced. I really do think these things factor in. I don't see much of a connection between the two bands.

[dee]

Paul and Kurt were pretty similar vocally/musically.They both were smart. They put their feelings into thier songs.Both were able to express what alot of people were feeling but had never tapped into themselves.Neither suffered fools lightly.Paul was a drinker,Kurt was a junkie,so Paul probably came off more obnoxious/charismatic/cranky and Kurt more withdrawn/mellow/moody.The Replacements are the mold for all post punk bands.Nirvana fit that mold but learned from what came before.Both had their own sense of style which weren't too dissimilar.Paul survived his youth,Kurt did not.They both sang about doing The Twist.Nirvana stepped up to the plate and delivered in every situation that helped their career.The Replacements sabotaged their opportunities and remained at the same level of success.Kurt and Paul wore the same style jacket in videos.Nirvana and The Replacements were both amazing post punk rock bands because of the undeniable talent of their front men.Both bands appealed to social outcasts. Many of Nirvana's flamboyant zany rock n roll moments felt staged and the Replacements crazy moments are like legendary tall tales.Both bands made great classic albums.Kurt/Nirvana were more outspoken about social/political issues.Kurt had health problems.The Replacements were all dysfunctional personalities.

It's all speculation.

[crud2k]

One BIG connection between PW and Kurt is Manic Depression and being suicidal at times. They wrote about things from the same tortured emotional persepective. Kurt was probably infuenced by things like 'Unsatisfied' which Cortney/Hole played a lot.

[BronxTeacher]

I've always thought that Nirvana borrowed a few things from the Replacements: the look (plaid), Paul's raspy singing voice, and the attitude--albeit without the Mats' humor. Robert Christgau said the Mats were both fun and funny, and I think Nirvana lacked that. The Replacements were more melodic, too.

[cford]

Aug 31, 2010 9:41:37 GMT -5 BronxTeacher said:

I've always thought that Nirvana borrowed a few things from the Replacements: the look (plaid), Paul's raspy singing voice, and the attitude--albeit without the Mats' humor. Robert Christgau said the Mats were both fun and funny, and I think Nirvana lacked that. The Replacements were more melodic, too.

I believe that to be true..I've always assumed that Kurt was a big Replacements fan who refused to admit it for fear of being accused of ripping them off.. Speculation really, just based on things I've read here and there.

CF

[landshark]

Never understood why ANYONE gets credit for adopting plaid (or flannel) as a style ... both seem ubiquitous in all geographies and demographics ... I think.

As for the thread topic, cford hits nail on head.

[brianlux]

Personally, I'm a fan of both bands. Two things I may never understand:

1. Why did Nirvana get wider recognition than The Replacements and
2. Why is Cobain (even before he died) better known than Westerberg?

[dee]

Kurt did certainly play down any admiration for The Replacements.And Paul didn't seem to be too big of a Nirvana fan at the time either.Kurt gushed about his likes and dislikes of most other bands.He supposedly gave high praise to Westerberg in a fanzine
no one has ever seen.Bob Stinson had some Kurt stories about getting high with him at a Replacements show and touring with Nirvana in one of his post Replacements bands.I think Nirvana tried to maybe come off like the Replacements(like when you see them falling down and coming off as wild and crazy)but they were way more professional and savvy about taking their band to the next level once the opprotunity presented it's self.The pop and metal that Nirvana toppled was old and played out.When the Replacements were around that other music was in it's heyday.I think GnR exposed some of the metal scene as pretty watered down when appetite came out and Janes Addiction was making some people think there were other options besides metal.Gangster rap might have lured some kids away from metal as well.The times they were a changing.I think I kind of miss the spectacle of those arena rock shows.Now it's pretty much a country market for those arena shows.

[hudson99]

Aug 31, 2010 15:07:03 GMT -5 brianlux said:

Personally, I'm a fan of both bands. Two things I may never understand:

1. Why did Nirvana get wider recognition than The Replacements and
2. Why is Cobain (even before he died) better known than Westerberg?

Simply put, the momentum created by bands like the 'mats, Husker Du, etc. set the stage for something fresh to hit the mainstream at the end of the decade. The hair band scene was beginning to flame out, while at the same commercial alternative radio stations were starting to show up in every major city. Nirvana (and to a lesser extent Green Day) were at the right place at the right time.

Your second question doesn't make a lot of sense. Nirvana's big album sold 12 million copies, and the band was a fixture on MTV. Add to that the tabloid nature of his relationship with Courtney Love, and of course he's going to be better known to the mainstream than Paul.

[brianlux]

Aug 31, 2010 15:50:49 GMT -5 hudson99 said:

Aug 31, 2010 15:07:03 GMT -5 brianlux said:

Personally, I'm a fan of both bands. Two things I may never understand:

1. Why did Nirvana get wider recognition than The Replacements and
2. Why is Cobain (even before he died) better known than Westerberg?

Simply put, the momentum created by bands like the 'mats, Husker Du, etc. set the stage for something fresh to hit the mainstream at the end of the decade. The hair band scene was beginning to flame out, while at the same commercial alternative radio stations were starting to show up in every major city. Nirvana (and to a lesser extent Green Day) were at the right place at the right time.

Your second question doesn't make a lot of sense. Nirvana's big album sold 12 million copies, and the band was a fixture on MTV. Add to that the tabloid nature of his relationship with Courtney Love, and of course he's going to be better known to the mainstream than Paul.

Yes, of course. Perhaps question #2 would have made sense if I'd put "rhetorical question" in parentheses. I'm not trying to make comparisons or show favoritism in asking this RHETORICAL ( question- it just never made sense to me that Cobain got to to be so much better know than Westerberg... even though the reasons are obvious.

Does that make sense?

[bobstinsonsghost]

pioneers always get sh*t on.
mats and husker du pushed the boulder up the hill and alot of imitators jumped aboard for the ride down the other side.

thats always the way its been in rock and roll,look at the stooges,velvets,dolls hell even the pistols did'nt make much cash in their time.
but they'll all be remembered long after their imitators are forgotten.
same thing with the mats and that counts for something.
unless you're paul looking at his bank account while the goo-goo dolls get rich

[anarkissed]

I think the connection between the two bands has generally been made by pundits commenting on changes in the music industry from the early 80’s to the early 90’s. The theory seems to be that bands like R.E.M., the Replacements, and Husker Du (and it always seems to be those particular “big three” that are referenced) proved that a band could build a loyal and significant following through independent releases, constant touring on the club level, and perhaps college radio. Further, a savvy major label could then build upon that base to turn those bands into mainstream stars. Nirvana was supposed to be the first “alternative” band to follow this formula to such a wide level of success. There might be some validity to this idea, but Nirvana’s leap in visibility from something like “Bleach” to “Nevermind” was much more dramatic than anything that happened to R.E.M. or the Replacements, and was probably due more to having a massive single and a popular video than a lot of grass-roots indie work.

[hudson99]

Aug 31, 2010 20:10:03 GMT -5 anarkissed said:

was probably due more to having a massive single and a popular video than a lot of grass-roots indie work.

I don't really agree with this. I was running a record store at this time, and the buzz was indeed starting with Bleach. At that time, though, Sub Pop didn't have the type of distribution that would get their releases into the major chains or onto MTV. Even with this minor buzz, though, Geffen initially didn't believe that Nevermind would sell any more copies than Sonic Youth. There was little promotion in those first couple of months, and word of mouth was the main reason that the Teen Spirit video was rush released when the song started to get noticed. Once the album started to outsell the dumb Michael Jackson album that was supposed to dominate the Christmas season, Geffen's publicity department then started pumping tons of dollars to keep it at the top of the charts.

[Philip Garcia]

Aug 31, 2010 11:11:53 GMT -5 landshark said:

Never understood why ANYONE gets credit for adopting plaid (or flannel) as a style ... both seem ubiquitous in all geographies and demographics ... I think.

As for the thread topic, cford hits nail on head.

Just ask Neil... Everybody knows this is nowhere...

Phil

[gowhileucan]

Not as much in common as people think - the differencves as they say make all the difference.

Nirvana were very consciously a band that tried to create "Art". I don't think Paul has that side of him until much later (and he usually fails at it anyway when he's trying so hard).

The "fun/funny" thing is the obvious big difference. The bands that the Mats are influenced by : Thunders & The Heartbreakers, the Faces, Big Star (on Radio City especially), the Stones .......all of those bands had a wise-ass humor that isn't the same sensibility as Kurt's sense of humor (he had one, it just usually gets overwhelmed in their songs).

I think if Nirvana were around in '84/'84 Paul would have probably found them a drag really (in some ways like he did Husker Du).

[skunky]

Yes raspy voice and plaid..that's about it IMO..

I heard Paul say that he doesn't see the connection..

He said the replacements never had that "grunge" drum sound and the MATS also had a great sense of humor..Something Nirvanna didn't have..

[anarkissed]

_{>>I don't really agree with this. I was running a record store at this time, and the buzz was indeed starting with Bleach. At that time, though, Sub Pop didn't have the type of distribution that would get their releases into the major chains or onto MTV. Even with this minor buzz, though, Geffen initially didn't believe that Nevermind would sell any more copies than Sonic Youth. There was little promotion in those first couple of months, and word of mouth was the main reason that the Teen Spirit video was rush released when the song started to get noticed. Once the album started to outsell the dumb Michael Jackson album that was supposed to dominate the Christmas season, Geffen's publicity department then started pumping tons of dollars to keep it at the top of the charts.<<} The jump Nirvana made from where they were at the time of "Bleach" to "Nevermind" just didn't represent something that happened as a result of several years of toiling on the club circuit and gradually building a fanbase through several independently released albums. It didn't happen nearly that quickly or dramatically for someone like R.E.M., and never really happened for the Replacements or Husker Du.

[wiser's deluxe]

ummm. the obvious reference is clear: Nirvana's breakthrough album was named "Nevermind" in homage to a Mats song. the two reportedly met once in some hotel and had an awkward moment. and there is a legendary quote that's unofficially connected to Robert Plant who once said of Nirvana, "Nirvana? Sh()t, the Replacements were doing that 10 years ago."

can't entirely confirm the Plant quote, but the fact that Paul was asked to be the musical director on "The Singles" soundtrack is another indication of the Mats influence on grunge.