In A Perfect World...

[FreeRider]

Just something for discussion:

I read somewhere, maybe it was Peter Jesperson who said it or in the liner notes to DYKWITIW, that in a perfect world "I Will Dare" would've have been a big hit for the Mats.

So it got me thinking what other songs should've been hits had the record label and radio decided to get behind either the Mats or Paul. Since I haven't really listened to the radio since the late 80's, maybe early 90's, I can't remember what other songs by other bands the Mats or Paul solo would've had to compete against (obviously, Nirvana comes to mind).

And since this mainsteam success didn't happen for the Mats, do you think maybe they and other bands smiliar to them were ahead of their time?

I really thought that a poignant song like "Achin' To Be" would've grabbed a lot more people's ears back then. So if you were a record label exec in charge of promoting the Mats or Paul, which songs would you have picked to have had the best chance of being a hit?

[Trenton]

Would the Mats' have been even half as cool if they did have a hit?

But anyway, Alex Chilton had all the potential, and should have become a hit.

[FreeRider]

Hmmm, good question. I guess had they been allowed to be who they were and the record label and the producers didn't polish up their sound so much with too much reverb and adding chorus effects to the guitars every time, eg, Don't Tell A Soul, I'd like to think they'd still be viewed as a cool band.

I guess it's funny, with the passage of time and the sophistication that comes with it, things don't sound as ominous anymore. If you go back and listen to the early Mats stuff, it sounds rather accessible---also the recording technology and production wasn't as great as it can be today. But back then, was it really so threatening? And that's why I ask, was that style that the Mats played in ahead of its time?

I remember back in junior high school that Ozzie Osbourne was seen as this really ominous figure, this powerfully, dissonant, heavy stuff. Ha! Listening to some of Ozzie's earlier stuff today sounds down right tame!

[Trenton]

Well, looking back (I say that as if I was even old enough to look back on the Mats') it's easy to see them as ahead of their time because now, basement recording, indie "do it yourself" style music is "in". In a way, it's also cool to be uncool. It's "in" to be "out", so I guess in that way they might have been ahead of their time.

[kgp]

trenton said:

But anyway, Alex Chilton had all the potential, and should have become a hit.

Except that most of the radio-listening public has no idea who Alex Chilton is.

[GtrPlyr]

kgp said:

trenton said:

But anyway, Alex Chilton had all the potential, and should have become a hit.

Except that most of the radio-listening public has no idea who Alex Chilton is.

I'm not so sure a hit song is dependent on the listening audience having a clue about what, or whom you're singing about. It's usually the hook and melody of the song that draws them in at first anyway. Alex Chilton definitely had the makings of a hit song on rock/indie radio. If the people at radio and Warner's got behind it a bit more it might have happened. I suppose a decent video at the time would've helped too. I'm not saying it would've been #1 with a bullet but definitely could've been top 20.

Other ones that shoulda coulda been hits:

Can't Hardly Wait & Achin' to Be - Great songs with radio friendly production. Some of the Mats' other possible hits didn't quite have the radio-friendly sheen that these ones had, so I won't fool myself into thinking that radio would've even touched them. But these two definitely could've been moderate hits.

[paulie]

i think dyslexic heart shouldda been a hit. and love untold should have placed somewhere too. in a perfect westerberg world paul will be working on his next masterpeice called Stereo/Mono 2! the sequel.

[Trenton]

kgp said:

trenton said:

But anyway, Alex Chilton had all the potential, and should have become a hit.

Except that most of the radio-listening public has no idea who Alex Chilton is.

No one knew what Fergalicious meant either...

[bobb]

I agree that "alex chilton" is a "shoulda been" or more "how could it not have been?". Whenever I hear it played on the radio, even today, I think it still could be! As far as knowing who Alex Chilton is, I didn't have a clue until after I had already heard and loved the song. It wouldn't even make a difference to me if it were about a real person or not. A great song.

[TomT]

I think When It Began sounds very radio friendly. They even had the video.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdBdWVJW9RQ

[kgp]

I still don't see how a song about a marginal (commercially speaking) figure in pop culture could be a hit. (Plus, I'm imagining Joe Average radio listener thinking, "Why is a guy singing about another guy?")

"High Time" could have been a hit, maybe, had it not been released under the Grandpaboy moniker.

[DaveinDK]

Hey kgp, I've got to disagree with you regarding the whole "why is a guy singing about another guy?" thing. It's pretty common in rock and roll if you think about it. Bowie did Andy Warhol, Dylan wrote song Song to Woody, Lenny Bruce, Hurricaine, among others, Chuck Berry did Brown Eyed Handsome Man, i could go on and on. ( if you think of others, post them)

I mean guys sing songs about other guys all the time, so I don't think that's a reasonable excuse for Alex Chilton's failure to hit.

The fact that not many people know who Alex Chilton is probably wouldn't play a part in it either. It's not like the chorus of the song repeats his name again and again. The primary lyrical hook is the whole "I'm in love, with that song" part anyway.

Honestly, whenever I play these songs I think should have been hits (Alex Chilton, I Will Dare, Can't Hardly Wait, and even Achin' to Be) to the uninitated, the most common comment I get is something about not digging Paul's voice, which I always find shocking given his voice sounds like I've known it all my life.

[MikeR]

Somewhere along the way, the qualities that had originally made a rock & roll song a hit fell by the wayside. If Chuck Berry had never existed and he came onto today's music scene with a song like Johnny B Goode, he'd be nothing more than another obscure indie artist. The major record companies believe that it's easier and more readily controlled if they sell pablum, so that's what the public gets. There's no shortage of Mats/PW songs that deserved to be hits - it wasn't only Paul's lack of political skills that held them back, it was really the whole dynamic of the modern music industry.

[GtrPlyr]

daveindk said:

( if you think of others, post them)

You got me thinking of some others.

Blokes singing about blokes (Some of these were pretty big hits, some not. Some are about well known people, some not, and some are of course fictional people):

The Beatles - Hey Jude
Jonathan Richman - Pablo Piccaso
Peter Gabriel - Biko
Johnny Cash - A Boy Named Sue
Falco - Rock Me Amadeus
Bauhaus - Bela Lugosi's Dead
Eagles - James Dean
Jerry Jeff Walker (Sammy Davis Jr. too of course) - Mr. Bojangles
Townes Van Zandt (and many others) - Pancho & Lefty
ABC - When Smokey Sings
Isaac Hayes - Shaft
Van Morisson - Jackie Wilson Said

I think there's enough evidence to prove that guys singing about guys--even obscure ones--isn't the kiss of death regarding a songs hit potential.

I really don't believe that someone would hear a song on the radio, and not like it because it's about somebody they've never heard of; or because it was a guy singing about another guy. Let's face it, half the time people get the lyrics wrong so it's not like they'd even know what was being sung in the first place .

[FreeRider]

But wouldn't that add to the mystique of the song? I'd tend to think that it would cause a lot of people to ask, "Who the heck is Alex Chilton?" I know I didn't know who he was, I had to ask my older brother who Alex was.

and wasn't that something that Paul wanted to do anyway? To bring more attention to someone he admired?

Also two more songs by guys about other guys -

Warren Zevon: Boom Boom Mancini
REM: Man on The Moon

[FreeRider]

Moreover, part of the reason why I started this thread was because our classic rock station here in DC change up their format and included songs from the 80's. I was skeptical but someone told me to to surf in on it once in awhile. And sure enough, they played stuff that shocked me a bit. Pete Townshend's "Slit Skirts" and "Gonna Get You" and "Rough Boys"?

Wow, hadn't heard those songs in ages on the radio. And they played some Psychedelic Furs and a few others. So I started thinking, and one of the dj's used to be on a really great progressive radio station that went under, why not call in or email in and ask for the Mats? Or Paul?

I have no idea if they would think any of those songs would fit in their format but I think there sure are some radio friendly stuff that the Mats had that would work. And if I contacted that dj, he would certainly know who the Mats are, it wouldn't be like I'm talking to some moron or anything.

[FreeRider]

daveindk said:

....Honestly, whenever I play these songs I think should have been hits (Alex Chilton, I Will Dare, Can't Hardly Wait, and even Achin' to Be) to the uninitated, the most common comment I get is something about not digging Paul's voice, which I always find shocking given his voice sounds like I've known it all my life.

yeah, I agree about the voice comments. I don't understand it. I don't think he sounds that different or abnormal at all. It may not be the best sounding rock and roll voice, but it's got an emotional edge to it on some of those songs. It isn't harsh at all like, let's say, Billy Corgan. After awhile, Billy's voice becomes kinda annoying to me. Sorry, Billy.

[brianlux]

BORN FOR ME (P.W.:"one of the best songs I ever wrote".)
IT'S A WONDERFUL LIE
LOOKIN' OUT FOREVER
FINAL HURRAH

I think any of these would have made great air play. Too bad Capitals Records didn't put more effort into promoting Suicaine.

[cford]

freerider said:

Moreover, part of the reason why I started this thread was because our classic rock station here in DC change up their format and included songs from the 80's. I was skeptical but someone told me to to surf in on it once in awhile. And sure enough, they played stuff that shocked me a bit. Pete Townshend's "Slit Skirts" and "Gonna Get You" and "Rough Boys"?

The only station in my town that ever plays Westerberg stuff is actually classified as "Adult Contempory" which means they play alot of Bryan Adams, Lucinda Williams, etc... The 80s rock format probably wont touch Replacements.

CF

[FreeRider]

Hmm. I dunno; if they can play the Psychedelic Furs, then why not push the boundaries a bit and have 'em play some Mats? Or even some Paul?

The irony here is, that one longtime DC disc jockey was the guy who played "here comes a regular" that I first caught on the old WHFS radio station, back. I remember catching the tail end of the song and wondering, "Who is that?" and anxiously waiting to hear the dj tell me who it was.

Back then, it was "homegrown radio" and free formatted. That was a time when the dj could turn you on to something new, something you didn't know was out there but would like if you heard it. You're probably right, though----their 80's classic rock song list probably won't even go near the Mats.