Paul's/Mats' self-deprecation

[FreeRider]

You know, I've wondered about this. It seems to me that the Mats were always having a good laugh at themselves most of the time rather than at others. I've always wondered where this self-deprecation came from. Paul? The entire band?

It seems as if they were not only portrayed by the media as these out of control drunks, but also as this band that was imbued with this sense of knowing how it felt to be left out, being marginalized, being forgotten. Being bastards of young (ok, maybe I'm wrong in the latter part of that assessment.)
I'm wondering what others here think.

Where did the Mats underachieving image originate? Was that a band personality image they sort of took up, being the outsiders? And do you think the band played up to it a bit too much to the point where they put themselves into a corner as far as what people's expecatations of them were? Did it hurt the band or help them?

I don't view them as lovable underachievers. I always thought that they had the songwriting to go anywhere they wanted to. I also tend to think they self destructed in some ways when it came time to getting more mainstream success. Some might argue that self-deprecation is really a mask for insecurity and lack of confidence. You know, the jokes by the band about not getting airplay or whatever. But I tend to think that the self-deprecation is really a downplaying of what they knew to be their strengths. A sort of humility. They knew they were a good band even if others didn't.

To me, they weren't losers and Paul wrote some of the most incredible songs during that time that holds us well against or supercedes anything being done by his more mainstream peers.

Even today, Paul sometimes has this self-deprecatory humor. I laugh at his jokes too, but I also think, "well, no that's wrong. The band wasn't box office poison...no, he wasn't making a fool out of himself."

Or am I wrong in my perceptions?

[kgp]

Where did the Mats underachieving image originate? Was that a band personality image they sort of took up, being the outsiders? And do you think the band played up to it a bit too much to the point where they put themselves into a corner as far as what people's expecatations of them were? Did it hurt the band or help them?

I think a lot of that came from Paul himself. I don't think it's any secret that he's not an 'up with people' kind of guy, and as the voice of the band, he kind of took on that persona.

I also think it was the fear of failure--and a fear of success. Hey, if you can't be the best, might as well be the best at being the worst. I think Paul, as off the cuff as his work is perceived, is probably extremely critical of himself. Producers, managers, others who have worked with him have said as much. So that's a big part of it, I think, not to get too analytical.

[FreeRider]

Hi kgp,

thanks for your thoughts. yeah, I kinda thought the band's personality or persona was really Paul's. You just might be correct on that---fear of failure AND success. I suspect that someone who has such high standards is always going to be really self critical and maybe the self-deprecatory things was a way out, to downplay the accomplishments, to keep expectations down.

[A Regular]

I think they told you.

One foot in the door
the other in the gutter
the sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother.


I think they straddled that ladder of success, and realized that sometimes you have to swallow your integrity to advance...and it just wasn't worth it. Many working people face the same dilemma.... do you really want to suck up to the boss so you can get in line for that next promotion? At what cost is your pride?

I think PW is a proud MF, even with the jokes on self.... rather crack on yourself before someone else does.

[brianlux]

For all that we've heard over the years about "lovable underacheivers", "self-destructive", etc., the fact remains that "Let It Be" (at least) has, indeed, been regarded by many musicians and critics alike as a superb album. Besides, 60,000 of us on MWT can't be all wrong, right? (OK, I exaggerate a bit, but you know...)

[brianlux]

For all that we've heard over the years about "lovable underacheivers", "self-destructive", etc., the fact remains that "Let It Be" (at least) has, indeed, been regarded by many musicians and critics alike as a superb album. Besides, 60,000 of us on MWT can't be all wrong, right? (OK, I exaggerate a bit, but you know...)

[brianlux]

Dang, I did it again, same post twice... How does that happen......?

[FreeRider]

unsatisfied2 said:

I think they told you.

One foot in the door
the other in the gutter
the sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother.


I think they straddled that ladder of success, and realized that sometimes you have to swallow your integrity to advance...and it just wasn't worth it. Many working people face the same dilemma.... do you really want to suck up to the boss so you can get in line for that next promotion? At what cost is your pride?

I think PW is a proud MF, even with the jokes on self.... rather crack on yourself before someone else does.

Hi A Reg,

excellent point, thanks. I agree too that Paul is proud of his work, he knows he's got this incredible talent and that he is capable of producing art that moves people. And so I guess I'm taking the position that his self-deprecatory jokes are part of this humility, a measure of modesty.

Perhaps the media picked up on that too, that they were outsiders or something, and that's how their public image was formed (along with the out of control drunk stuff).

And Brianlux, I agree too; if they were such underachievers, then how did they put together something like "Let It Be"? Paul is not an underachiever in the songwriting department!

[A Regular]

Not sure how to say it properly, but there are some of us that don't take flattery well, and the immediate response is to flip it into something negative.

I think he falls into that, and finds comfort in the grinning put-down as compared to praise... and I agree it is related to modesty and being taught not to boast or brag so when you do boast a bit, you must at least balance it with a put-down. I think that stuff is learned as kids when parents are critical, and always finding something to improve upon (not to get too freudian) even when you do well.

[The Lizzard]

I don't agree that it's when the parents are too critical. I think there's a bit more to the inability to accept a compliment. I still haven't learned how to accept compliments or flattery, but sometimes I try to make an effort. My folks weren't critical, at least not overly so. I think like most learned behavior, there's not a real pat answer for it. I think too much plays into it, and to really get to the bottom of it, you'd have to spend years analyzing the man. (hmm... there's my next career... Therapist to the local rockers!)

[FreeRider]

Or do you think that---and I know this is a huge generalization--- there's this mid-western value about modesty and not being a blow-hard? I remember in some radio interview, I can't remember if it's the Steve Jones show, where Paul talked about the differences between LA and Minne. I think he said something to the effect of, "In LA, people will come up to you all the time, whereas in Minneapolis, people are a bit more respectful and polite, they know who you are but they leave you alone, they don't bother you."

I think for most people, that's a common reaction---to sort of downplay your accomplishments when someone keeps giving your praise or compliments. Still, I was always struck by the band's persona, that self-deprecation.

[kgp]

freerider said:

Or do you think that---and I know this is a huge generalization--- there's this mid-western value about modesty and not being a blow-hard? I remember in some radio interview, I can't remember if it's the Steve Jones show, where Paul talked about the differences between LA and Minne. I think he said something to the effect of, "In LA, people will come up to you all the time, whereas in Minneapolis, people are a bit more respectful and polite, they know who you are but they leave you alone, they don't bother you."

I think for most people, that's a common reaction---to sort of downplay your accomplishments when someone keeps giving your praise or compliments. Still, I was always struck by the band's persona, that self-deprecation.

Think about it: Paul was heralded as the next one to save rock 'n' roll while he was barely in his twenties. That's a lot to carry around. Of course he'd want to downplay it. I remember a Rolling Stone article from 1986 where the Replacements were labeled the next big thing (sharing the honor with Micheal J. Fox, according to the cover). Paul said something like everyone else wants to think he's special, but he doesn't think so. (Actually, it's one of his better--although shorter-- interviews from that time. Look it up at your local library if you get a chance.)

Still, while modesty is one thing, but they had the whole 'loser' persona down to a science.

[The Lizzard]

freerider said:

Or do you think that---and I know this is a huge generalization--- there's this mid-western value about modesty and not being a blow-hard? I remember in some radio interview, I can't remember if it's the Steve Jones show, where Paul talked about the differences between LA and Minne. I think he said something to the effect of, "In LA, people will come up to you all the time, whereas in Minneapolis, people are a bit more respectful and polite, they know who you are but they leave you alone, they don't bother you."

I think for most people, that's a common reaction---to sort of downplay your accomplishments when someone keeps giving your praise or compliments. Still, I was always struck by the band's persona, that self-deprecation.

Good points. It could very well be a midwestern thing. And I've noticed that in the company of a boaster, most people around these parts will close ranks and give the person a cold shoulder.
As for the not bothering our local rockers... well, at times it's true. After a few beers, though, you find that you get over the politeness. (I'm still smacking my forehead over the last stupid thing I said to a local boy who plays guitar.)

[A Regular]

liz said:

I don't agree that it's when the parents are too critical. I think there's a bit more to the inability to accept a compliment.

Yeah, I didn't mean to generalize and imply in all cases.. but I still think it is a combination of mid-western modesty as FreeRider points out and being reminded while growing that the world doesn't always revolve around you... and surely there can be tons of factors that influence one's reaction to flattery... I guess I was using the parental thing as an example of one thing that could create this false modesty thing. Might also be a guy thing....get too close and I keep my mouth shut.

Its just not cool to be a blowhard.....see Scott Stapp and Fred Durst.

[deebee76]

I think the whole self-deprecation thing is what's drawn a lot of people to the 'Mats and Paul's music over the years because it's so easy to relate to, unless you're one of those strange people who feels they "have it all together" or something It's kind of an "aw shucks, I screwed up again but life goes on" kinda thing that relates well to my personality and, apparently, a lot of other people, as well. They were, if anything else, brutally honest and never let themselves get egotistical or pretentious. In many ways, I almost think it takes this kind of person to really "get" what the 'Mats attitude and Paul's songs are about...

[A Regular]

deebee76 said:

I think the whole self-deprecation thing is what's drawn a lot of people to the 'Mats and Paul's music over the years because it's so easy to relate to, unless you're one of those strange people who feels they "have it all together" or something It's kind of an "aw shucks, I screwed up again but life goes on" kinda thing that relates well to my personality and, apparently, a lot of other people, as well. They were, if anything else, brutally honest and never let themselves get egotistical or pretentious. In many ways, I almost think it takes this kind of person to really "get" what the 'Mats attitude and Paul's songs are about...

Well said....and true I think.

[The Lizzard]

unsatisfied2 said:

Might also be a guy thing....get too close and I keep my mouth shut.

It's not a guy thing. I was going to go into the gender difference, how more often than not girls are taught (whether intentionally or not is up for debate) not to brag or boast of their accomplishments. Then I realized that it's neither here nor there in this debate. Unless there's something we don't know about Paul...

unsatisfied2 said:

Its just not cool to be a blowhard.....see Scott Stapp and Fred Durst.

And no, no, I'd rather not see either of those two.

[mdelirious]

deebee76 said:

I think the whole self-deprecation thing is what's drawn a lot of people to the 'Mats and Paul's music over the years because it's so easy to relate to, unless you're one of those strange people who feels they "have it all together" or something It's kind of an "aw shucks, I screwed up again but life goes on" kinda thing that relates well to my personality and, apparently, a lot of other people, as well.

There have been times when I've found myself thinking, "gosh. I just totally screwed that up, didn't I? well...well, hey, the 'Mats probably screwed a lot of things up! it happens."

It's probably not the best way to think of things, but it's comforting. So, yes, I'd agree that self-deprecation is an easy thing to relate to...

[FreeRider]

Wow, excellent thoughts! Thanks for sharing your views.

deebee76: I agree with A Reg, well said. And that's another thing I've noticed about Paul and the Mats---the brutal candidness in some of these interviews. Paul sometimes has an openess and frankness that sometimes is a little unsettling because he's an artist who is really exposing his most personal thoughts. He doesn't shy away from the question.

A Reg: the parental thing is not so bad an example. I'm thinking of some Asian American families where the parents still stress to the kids this old world value of not bringing too much attention to your self and your accomplishments, that you got all A's except for this one class where you got a B, why don't you work harder, type of thing...and that it's offensive and gauche to be a braggart.

Lizzard: that's a good point to about females, there is a socialization process whereby they're not learning to be as competitive or as assertive as males. but yeah, that's for another topic and thread altogether!

[headlightbeams]

STINK!