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Post by anarkissed on Dec 8, 2020 12:34:39 GMT -5
Bob Dylan has sold the rights to his catalog of original songs to Universal Music Group. Details were not revealed, but talk was that his asking price was around $300 million. First, I was somewhat surprised that he still had the rights to his songs. Second, I was somewhat surprised that he would sell them. Universal kind of made it sound like Dylan would be still be involved in "administering" their use, but I can't imagine they'd pay for something where he had veto power. How much do you think Paul could get for his collection? I'm thinking he holds the rights to most of his, or at least once did - the publishing rights - because he had that little period where he was thinking he might transition into more of a writer for people like Glenn Campbell or whoever. $100,000?
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Dec 8, 2020 18:00:09 GMT -5
I think one of the reasons you're seeing so many artists do this (Dylan is the latest, but Crosby, S. Nicks, some of the bigger metal guys) is that music is looking like less and less of a valuable commodity. It's not selling on its own anymore, and what little streaming revenue there is isn't being generated by Dylan fans, so the only real value is in placement - commercials, films, etc. These guys are old and cashing out one last time while they've got some time to enjoy the payday and while the value is there. The way that things look, it's a pretty smart thing to do. In 10 years, they'd probably get less.
It's really hard to say what Paul could get. He has no hits and isn't in demand. Strictly conjecture here, but I really doubt he'd sell for $100k - he could make that off just a couple songs getting placed in decent-budget movies. Seems like it'd be worth the chance to hold onto it. Making $500-$750k in his remaining years off his back catalog is way more of a stretch. Really hard to say.
Even having a single hit would drive it way up. Dee Sninder supposedly really cleaned up selling a majority interest in his catalog - which for the sake of value is basically 2 big songs. Dude can live like a king and die rich off 2 metal anthems he wrote in 1984.
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Post by raccoon on Dec 8, 2020 18:43:14 GMT -5
'ring them (cash register) bells'.
Love me some Bod Dylan! Don't know what Paul's catalog is worth but it is priceless to me.
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Post by anarkissed on Dec 9, 2020 5:58:52 GMT -5
Dee Sninder supposedly really cleaned up selling a majority interest in his catalog - which for the sake of value is basically 2 big songs. Dude can live like a king and die rich off 2 metal anthems he wrote in 1984. Did he have 2? I can only think of the one... |
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Post by firespirit on Dec 9, 2020 6:29:22 GMT -5
Dee Sninder supposedly really cleaned up selling a majority interest in his catalog - which for the sake of value is basically 2 big songs. Dude can live like a king and die rich off 2 metal anthems he wrote in 1984. Did he have 2? I can only think of the one... We're Not Gonna Take It and I Wanna Rock. The I Wanna Rock music video was shot at the local high school in my neighborhood. Some of my old school friends are in the crowd scenes.... |
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Post by anarkissed on Dec 9, 2020 10:28:20 GMT -5
Wow. I always thought "I Wanna Rock" was Sammy Hagar...
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Freddy
First Class Scout
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Post by Freddy on Dec 9, 2020 17:43:01 GMT -5
I can't wait to hear "All Along the Watchtower" selling Nikes.  |
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Post by curmudgeonman on Dec 9, 2020 17:49:31 GMT -5
I think one of the reasons you're seeing so many artists do this (Dylan is the latest, but Crosby, S. Nicks, some of the bigger metal guys) is that music is looking like less and less of a valuable commodity. It's not selling on its own anymore, and what little streaming revenue there is isn't being generated by Dylan fans, so the only real value is in placement - commercials, films, etc. These guys are old and cashing out one last time while they've got some time to enjoy the payday and while the value is there. The way that things look, it's a pretty smart thing to do. In 10 years, they'd probably get less. This is spot on.
NOBODY in the music business makes their fortune in sales of music to the public anymore. The two main revenue streams for today's musicians are licensing/"placement", and touring. Dylan selling now is a smart move; licensing for him may not be as lucrative as other guys like McCartney, Jagger/Richards, etc. And his touring days may be over, especially since Covid has basically decimated the entire concert industry.
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Post by FreeRider on Dec 10, 2020 17:10:57 GMT -5
I guess that there are diminishing returns on sales for aging artists. I remember reading about Steely Dan saying they had to hit the road and tour because money from sales and other royalties were diminishing quickly over time. So yeah, I guess that streaming is the go-to now, and they can get performance royalties from Sirius Radio and Spotify and the other platforms. As far as Paul, we've had this conversation before with his publishing deal, can't believe that was 11 years ago. paulwesterberg.proboards.com/thread/6702 |
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Post by firespirit on Dec 11, 2020 7:21:35 GMT -5
I guess that there are diminishing returns on sales for aging artists. I remember reading about Steely Dan saying they had to hit the road and tour because money from sales and other royalties were diminishing quickly over time. So yeah, I guess that streaming is the go-to now, and they can get performance royalties from Sirius Radio and Spotify and the other platforms. As far as Paul, we've had this conversation before with his publishing deal, can't believe that was 11 years ago. paulwesterberg.proboards.com/thread/6702 yeah, I saw an interview a couple of yrs ago with Michael McDonald where he basically said the same thing about having to tour at his age because of a lack of incoming royalties. I mean this guy had HUGE hits with the Doobies and on his own. You would think he was set for the rest of his life..... |
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Post by anarkissed on Dec 11, 2020 15:03:22 GMT -5
So, in a different world, what songs written by Paul could have conceivably become big enough hits to be worth big money via the "placement" path? Either via the original recording or covered by someone else. Remember that story that Cameron Crowe wanted "Within Your Reach" to be the song playing in the boombox scene? Would that have made a difference? That song is on the film soundtrack.
I was thinking: Paul could have easily knocked off a dozen of those "I Wanna Rock" type songs...In an afternoon. What if he'd written something like that straight, and Quiet Riot had covered it instead of that Slade song?
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Post by FreeRider on Dec 11, 2020 16:32:14 GMT -5
Agree that Paul could've really pushed to get some songs out there on popular films with people like Cameron Crowe in his corner or more mainstream success rockers. But I don't know back then what kind of publishing deal he had or if Warner's was still taking the bulk of everything. Royalties are structured weirdly, I don't quite understand it. There are mechanical royalties (the actual physical piece of work, the album, cassette, CD, what have you), performance royalties where they get paid if it's played on the radio (supposedly there is some flat rate fee but who listens to radio anymore?) and then the songwriting and publishing royalties? Whatever is going on with Paul's deal with Bug Music, it sure hasn't seemed like he's gotten his works out there. The real thing that probably earned him money was Glen Campbell covering his tunes and then selling lots of units and/or getting played enough on streaming platforms. And as firespirit mentioned, Michael McDonald having to tour, and I mentioned about Steely Dan, it shows that when your time in the spotlight and when you were hot is over, your money drops quite a bit. Especially if radio or streaming doesn't play your shit anymore. You get relegated to oldies status if you're lucky, I guess. I remember Pete Townshend saying that rock radio reduced his career to like about 8 songs. "What about the 400 other songs I've written?" he said. Anyway, to get more into the diminishing income, this blog broke down Donald Fagen's complaint about having to get out there on tour, if anyone cares to slog thru it or believes the stats are correct. www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2017/08/steely-dans-donald-fagen-just-doesnt-get-it-unless-he-does.html |
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Post by anarkissed on Dec 11, 2020 17:07:46 GMT -5
Sometimes, I imagine that my grandchildren will say: "You're telling me, back in the day, you actually went somewhere, in person, and these people who actually recorded those songs, played those same songs, live?"
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Post by firespirit on Dec 11, 2020 22:12:36 GMT -5
I remember back after the Mats broke up Paul signed a publishing deal and he said he was literally a "millionaire for one day". After the lawyers & agents got their cut he used the $ to buy his house....
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Post by con on Dec 12, 2020 1:42:48 GMT -5
Sometimes, I imagine that my grandchildren will say: "You're telling me, back in the day, you actually went somewhere, in person, and these people who actually recorded those songs, played those same songs, live?" Lol! Fudge |
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Post by FreeRider on Dec 12, 2020 10:37:10 GMT -5
I remember back after the Mats broke up Paul signed a publishing deal and he said he was literally a "millionaire for one day". After the lawyers & agents got their cut he used the $ to buy his house.... yeah, I remember that story but not the particulars, thanks for the reminder about that. Goes to show you how much is skewed towards the labels and lawyers, etc in these percentages. That's why the business model of DIY is where the artist can make and keep more of the profit. There are no distribution deals to ship out the CD's with the label if you release the shit yourself, like he did, digitally. So nobody else is grabbing their cut. But still---is he getting anything from streaming? Is any platform playing his stuff at all?? I would suspect with Glen Campbell's last CD and recording, Paul got a decent chunk of change from royalties from the CD sales or online digital downloads and whatever streamed playing Campbell got. So in the end, I have no idea if anyone at Bug Music has pushed for his music to used somewhere. And I dunno how he, or the fans, would feel if something of his wound up in some cheesy commercial, when we'd rather it be some decent movie instead. |
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Post by curmudgeonman on Dec 12, 2020 11:39:07 GMT -5
Royalties are structured weirdly, I don't quite understand it. There are mechanical royalties (the actual physical piece of work, the album, cassette, CD, what have you), performance royalties where they get paid if it's played on the radio (supposedly there is some flat rate fee but who listens to radio anymore?) and then the songwriting and publishing royalties? Whatever is going on with Paul's deal with Bug Music, it sure hasn't seemed like he's gotten his works out there. The real thing that probably earned him money was Glen Campbell covering his tunes and then selling lots of units and/or getting played enough on streaming platforms. Call me a pessimist, but I don't think Westerberg made a ton of money on Glen Campbell at all. For one, he just had songwriting/publishing royalties on his song Ghost on the Canvas. And even though the album reached the top 10 of the country charts, it did not sell a million units. As a comparison I used before, Nick Lowe had one song (What's So Funny 'Bout Peace, Love & Understanding) on the 1994 The Bodyguard album, the biggest selling soundtrack in history, 45 million units worldwide. Back in a day when album/CD sales were at its peak. Everyone thought he became independently wealthy because of the one song, but he revealed years later that no, he did not. In fact, the money was used to finance a club tour with a full band. No mansions or anything like that.
I was on one those Spotify royalty calculators and it came up with $4300 for 1 million plays. Less than half a cent per play. Basically streaming is a way for bands to get their product out there to help bring in the crowds to their live concerts, where ticket sales, corporate sponsors, and merchandising pays the bills. Hell, if Steely Dan can't make money on publishing and streaming, I don't know how Westerberg can.
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Post by mudbacktodirt on Dec 12, 2020 12:49:49 GMT -5
I remember Dave Minehan describing Paul as a fairly frugal type of guy. My guess is that he toured just enough from 2013-2015 to cover expenses he had coming up (maybe post-divorce house payoff and covering his kid's college as guesses) and then called it quits. His back of the T-shirt message kind of indicated what he was doing it for.
For royalties, I would agree that he probably doesn't get much at all. If he does need significantly more money at some point, then hitting the road when that becomes viable again is really the only way. I'd love to see Paul on tour but I'd want him to enjoy doing it and feel good about it of course.
I'd hope he could feel free to do it without having some alternative rock sense of selling out or feeling like doing it just for the money is hovering over it. There's a point where that shouldn't matter any more. Just do what you want to do, play the setlist you want, and the hell with all that and what anyone might think.
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Post by FreeRider on Dec 12, 2020 23:35:50 GMT -5
yeah, Paul having enough money to buy the house or pay off the mortgage sounds familiar as well. But man, a performing artist's life has no guarantee of continued economic gains. I guess when you hit your peak, you better not blow the money on stupid stuff but save some for a rainy day because it'll come.
I think there was a Paul quote, it's in the articles/interview thread, where someone asked Paul about the downturn. He said something along the lines of "it goes fast." You start seeing the audience is less than what it was before and it happens so fast that it doesn't register; you turn around one day and go, "Wait, was that our peak?"
He may have been right all along about being famous and all. Because one day the spotlight will shift towards something else and if you haven't saved any money, you're not only out of favor, but you've got to hustle now to pay off your mansion. Unless you get the huge bucks and become a top of the charts type of artist for a number of years.
And you're right, the more I look into it, streaming doesn't pay shit for the artists. The royalty percentages are so low and in favor of the platforms that Dave Lowry from Cracker actually filed a class action lawsuit against Spotify.
I guess Paul is at peace with where he is. I dunno how much he and the band got for the Dead Man's Pop, especially when they still owe the label some money. Or the recent Please to Meet Me stuff. maybe at some point, he just decides to retire from performing and focus more on writing for others maybe? Would be a shame if he didn't perform anymore, though.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Dec 13, 2020 15:49:30 GMT -5
I guess Paul is at peace with where he is. I dunno how much he and the band got for the Dead Man's Pop, especially when they still owe the label some money. Or the recent Please to Meet Me stuff. maybe at some point, he just decides to retire from performing and focus more on writing for others maybe? Would be a shame if he didn't perform anymore, though. It's been 16 years since Folker, 14 since Open Season, and 11 since he wrote the songs for Glen. That's an awful long time. And he made it pretty clear how he felt about and why he did the reunion tour. Who knows what he wants to do, but all signs point away from playing live and a conventional recording. |
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