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Post by FreeRider on Jun 6, 2020 9:18:19 GMT -5
So, with Minne being ground zero for this huge social upheaval, I wonder what effect it has on Paul. If any. Does any of this inspire him to write new tunes? Maybe, maybe not.
I know Paul has said previously that to him, politics doesn't fit or belong in rock and roll. I can sort of agree with him because I don't like being preached to or be lectured when I can read the papers and find the news myself. Now if someone can simply state something as it is without preaching, I can dig it and believe it's a more powerful statement. I think of Neil Young's "Rockin' in The Free World".
Also, in times like these, I always thought there would be some sort of new music movement or sound to emerge to voice the frustration of being young nowadays. I really thought that during the Great Recession, there would be some sort of reflection of that, some sort of musical re-awakening. Much like the post punk stuff and alternative stuff arising in the Reagan years. Something that reflects the times and feelings of the moment.
Any thoughts?
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Post by curmudgeonman on Jun 6, 2020 14:00:48 GMT -5
I really abhor politics in rock music. Never liked it, never will. Reason why I have always preferred The Ramones to The Sex Pistols and The Clash. Take Bob Dylan; he has written and performed a small number of songs veiled in politics, but he bristled at the label "protest singer". and on a few occasions expressed his thought that it is "absurd" that performers have the answers to the world problems. I agree with him, and Paul's opinion about politics. One minor reason I loved The Mats was because they were not a political band, a subject that can severely date a performer or band, IMO. The Beatles music has a unique timeless quality about it, and one good reason is that the songs, with the exception of a couple, did not delve into politics or topical happenings of the time.
My WAG is that Westerberg's last few months were no different than previous months; a recluse at home, smoking cigarettes, playing piano, watching TV, going for walks.
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Post by anarkissed on Jun 6, 2020 14:03:52 GMT -5
I think Paul's early songwriting, on things like "Sorry Ma" and "Stink", had actual political implications, if expressed apolitically. Songs about just being bored. Songs like "Goddamn Job" and "Fuck School". There's certainly some expression of alienation and discontent. To declare oneself disinterested in politics is, in itself, a political act.
I think there are plenty of new young artists making political statements, it just hasn't coalesced into a recognizable genre or movement. I would think most of it is in rap, though I have been listening to a band called Lee Bains and The Glory Fires, who I describe as if The Clash had been from Alabama.
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Post by con on Jun 6, 2020 14:52:19 GMT -5
Great insights! Been thinking about this too. I picture Paul doing pretty much what curmudgeonman imagines, maybe riding his bike down to "ground zero" once for a peek at the mayhem. I'm grateful for artists like Paul who resist the pressure to become sloganeers for "the revolution." Coercion and great art will never be bedfellows.
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Post by FreeRider on Jun 6, 2020 16:48:12 GMT -5
yeah, good comments here. Agree---nobody likes being lectured to in songs, I don't think. To me, it comes across as condescending, as if I'm incapable of reading the papers or catching up with current events. Or worse, the song is telling me what I should be doing or thinking or what I should be enraged about. And yeah, Dylan---songs like "Hurricane" is not really a political song but he veils that there is indeed some sort of injustice here. But he simply paints the picture without comment. And a song like Neil's 'Rockin' in The Free World' is great because he leaves it up to YOU as to what it means. He just presents you with this reflection of society and it's up to you to decide what it is, what it means. But I do wonder what Paul thinks about what's going on in his hometown and if there is some feeling he gets from it---anger or sadness--- that will be put into his songs. I doubt it's for public consumption though, probably just for himself though. Here is something Paul said awhile ago: What did you make of punk at first? I loved it. I don’t love it so much now. I can go back and still listen to the Pistols record, but I have a hard time listening to, say, the Damned or the Jam. Did you respond to it musically or politically? It wasn’t the lyrics at all. So you weren’t pissed off at the queen? Exactly. That stuff didn’t mean anything to a kid who grew up in the Midwest. The truth is that the only politics any of us ever cared about was the politics of being cool. With punk, it was like Black Sabbath, but they weren’t singing about iron, mystical, weird shit. It was “fuck you” and “fuck that,” and we loved that. www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/qa-paul-westerberg-37903/
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Post by FreeRider on Jun 6, 2020 16:53:29 GMT -5
I think Paul's early songwriting, on things like "Sorry Ma" and "Stink", had actual political implications, if expressed apolitically. Songs about just being bored. Songs like "Goddamn Job" and "Fuck School". There's certainly some expression of alienation and discontent. To declare oneself disinterested in politics is, in itself, a political act. I think there are plenty of new young artists making political statements, it just hasn't coalesced into a recognizable genre or movement. I would think most of it is in rap, though I have been listening to a band called Lee Bains and The Glory Fires, who I describe as if The Clash had been from Alabama. Yeah, I don't listen much to radio so I have no idea what's really going on musically unless I read about it. And it doesn't have to be political statements even---just being a voice to what young people are feeling these days (climate change, student loan debt, wage stagnation, broken politics, etc...) But true, the early work does have an implied political view if you do a deep dive on why those feelings were prevalent. And as you said, he expresses it apolitically or just voices the sentiments of the time. Hey, it beats pickin' cotton and waiting to be forgotten....
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Post by ClamsCasino on Jun 6, 2020 17:08:37 GMT -5
Have we forgotten that Paul wrote Androgynous? He's been singing about social politics for a long time.
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Post by anarkissed on Jun 6, 2020 18:13:06 GMT -5
I suppose I could see someone saying they preferred songs that weren't explicitly political. But I can't imagine just wiping a whole raft of them off to one side because of that. It's too broad. It'd be like saying you didn't like songs about love, or drugs, or girls, or cars...Here are some political songs that I think are great. Some of them are kinda preachy, kinda obvious, others less so. Some of them, I could see why people wouldn't like them. Others, it's hard for me to think anyone would blow them off just for being political...
"This Land Is Your Land" - Woody Guthrie "Masters of War" - Bob Dylan "Ohio" - CSN&Y "I Fought The Law" - The Bobby Fuller Four "Chicago" - Graham Nash "Campaigner" - Neil Young "Revolution" - The Beatles "Street Fighting Man" - The Rolling Stones "Mr. Big" - The Dils "Won't Get Fooled Again" - The Who "Killing In The Name" - Rage Against The Machine "The Hand That Feeds" - Nine Inch Nails "The Pill" - Loretta Lynn "London Calling" - The Clash "Welcome to the Occupation" - R.E.M. "War Pigs" - Black Sabbath "Anarchy in the U.K." - The Sex Pistols "Straight Outta Compton" - NWA "Fight The Power" - Public Enemy "Free Will" - Rush
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Post by FreeRider on Jun 7, 2020 10:18:06 GMT -5
Have we forgotten that Paul wrote Androgynous? He's been singing about social politics for a long time. good counter point!
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Post by FreeRider on Jun 7, 2020 10:31:21 GMT -5
I suppose I could see someone saying they preferred songs that weren't explicitly political. But I can't imagine just wiping a whole raft of them off to one side because of that. It's too broad. Good points....I think there are generalities and nuances. For me, I prefer things with subtlety rather than heavy handedness. I used to like U2 in the early days (yeah, I know Sunday Bloody Sunday and New Year's Day were overt too) but stopped becoming a fan when Bono would ad lib or say stuff overtly in concert. I was with them right up to the Joshua Tree and then they lost me with Rattle and Hum...I'm one who would prefer the song speak for itself. Just let your art say what you need to say, perhaps. And there are times when the actual music is irresistable, the sound, the energy, the melody strikes me but the story telling, the lyrics are "mehhhh", so I'll kind of not pay attention to that aspect. I won't throw everything to the side, with the examples you provided. I guess I'm more for the sentiment, the feeling that comes thru the music and not so much about anything overtly preachy. I dunno, I guess it's a fine line in how I perceive it. I'd be interested in if Paul's stance has changed since he made that statement.
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Post by ClamsCasino on Jun 7, 2020 14:53:57 GMT -5
Have we forgotten that Paul wrote Androgynous? He's been singing about social politics for a long time. good counter point! More recently, he used a kids movie to inject some wry commentary on gun control.
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Post by raccoon on Jun 7, 2020 22:02:00 GMT -5
'Hello! This is the Minneapolis police. (Fuck you!)'
Had to play that intro to Kid's Don't Follow this morning for a laugh.
Another snippet of early Mats comes to mind as I type this: 'Don't shoot, don't shoot, don't shoot'.
Marvin Gaye was all over this in 1971: 'Picket lines and picket signs. Don't punish me with brutality.'
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Post by holeinthedrapes on Jun 8, 2020 14:18:46 GMT -5
I can’t imagine Paul writing a song that directly comments on the situation in MN, but who can ever predict him? The fact that nobody would ever expect him to (I mean, who ever saw a kids’ animated movie soundtrack in his future?) may well lead him to write a song or album about it. On the political music front, I’m a big Springsteen fan. And I couldn’t care less what his politics are. I know his music is better played when not thinking about his politics. I listened to him DJing his weekly show on Sirius last week and he made a comment about the number of people unemployed and made a remark (can’t remember exactly) that inferred it was trump’s fault. It just sounded so disingenuous, as if he wasn’t aware that the reason for the unemployment spike was because of the pandemic. I’m not expecting him to comment on the 2.5 million new jobs this week.
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Post by raccoon on Jun 8, 2020 20:54:05 GMT -5
I’m not expecting him to comment on the 2.5 million new jobs this week. As if we can trust any number coming from this administration. That is almost as many jobs as lies told by the bunker baby.
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Post by holeinthedrapes on Jun 8, 2020 22:25:45 GMT -5
I’m not expecting him to comment on the 2.5 million new jobs this week. As if we can trust any number coming from this administration. That is almost as many jobs as lies told by the bunker baby. Who is the bunker baby? Anyway, my point was that I don’t care about the politics of the musicians I listen to in their songs. Chances are that when they start talking about it they’re going to turn me off.
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Jer
Beagle Scout
Posts: 1,182
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Post by Jer on Jun 9, 2020 7:14:06 GMT -5
I have been listening to a band called Lee Bains and The Glory Fires, who I describe as if The Clash had been from Alabama. GREAT band! Their `Live at The Nick` record has some amazing between-song banter about the good-old-boy culture in the south. These guys don't fit the mold. Their songs are amazing and there's a powerful message in there, well delivered. Hard working, constantly touring too. They've probably played your town to 8 people. Songs like Androgynous and Fuck School I suppose could be considered political on a certain level, but nowhere near some of the stuff that was coming out in the late 60s or early 70s. I can see why anyone wouldn't be into political music, and personally I'm a bit more into songs about heartache, regret, stuff like that, but it's really hard to discount the greatness and social impact of some of the songs that anarkissed listed. A song like `Ohio` is part of the fabric of that time, it's become a key part of a major historical event, and that's a pretty powerful thing. Same with `Sunday Bloody Sunday.` The Clash were also pretty great at taking what the Sex Pistols started with being pissed off and moving it to the next level of intelligent protest in the form of art. They're one of the most important bands ever, and without politics, the wouldn't be. While I don't necessarily gravitate towards the political stuff myself, I really hate the "shut up and sing" mentality (though no one really verbalized that here) and find it inspiring when a musician can articulate their politics into their music - making great art and not being preachy. When done well, it's got as much or more impact as anything. When done poorly, it can be preachy and annoying.
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Post by raccoon on Jun 9, 2020 11:34:09 GMT -5
[/quote]Who is the bunker baby? Anyway, my point was that I don’t care about the politics of the musicians I listen to in their songs. Chances are that when they start talking about it they’re going to turn me off.[/quote]
Pay me no mind, Drapes! I'm sure none of us want to turn this into a political board.
Maybe the most brilliant political song ever is Jimi's version of The Star Spangled Banner which captured a moment of history without the aid of lyrics. Morrison was also incredibly powerful during some of his live performances with his confrontational rants at audiences. 'I think you like it. I think you LIKE getting pushed around....'
Back to the original post, I think you are dead right, Drapes, about Paul. There is absolutely no predicting what he will do which is part of his appeal. My belief is that many of the musicians we admire are holding back for fear of looking like shallow opportunists. Dylan is from Minnesota and I would love to hear from him but his admirable record on civil rights causes is already stout and he probably recognizes that other voices deserve the stage right now.
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Post by con on Jun 9, 2020 12:45:57 GMT -5
This. I think this is why I don’t think of PW’s songs as overtly “political.” It’s like how in the dark you have to look to the side of something, not directly at it, in order to see it. It’s what distinguishes art from propaganda. The shrouding of the thing, I mean.
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Post by curmudgeonman on Jun 9, 2020 13:15:08 GMT -5
As if we can trust any number coming from this administration any goddamn politicianFIFY. Here's Westy's "anti-political" song Election DayI meant to close the polls In the chill night, bitter cold Someone close the polls On a chill night in the cold
Election day Now I cannot stay Wannabe, wannabe Wannabe, wannabe
I don't care who gets elected I don't care who gets to find out I don't care who gets elected Til I find me one to love
Wannabe, wannabe Wannabe, wannabe Wannabe, wannabe Wannabe
Election, election I said election I don't care, I don't care I don't care Our election day
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pie
Tenderfoot
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Post by pie on Jun 9, 2020 16:24:30 GMT -5
Surprised by some of the comments in here decrying any talk of politics in music and saying that Paul and The Replacements were apolitical. Pretty much everything is political because politics affects everything around us. There is no truly apolitical artist. All art is a reflection of our society which is a reflection of our politics.
Now on the subject of the The Replacements sureeeeeee they never really got into the nitty gritty of politics. They never had any anti reagan song or stuff like that. But pretty much everything they did has a streak of it in.
Those first few albums are all a reflection of their upbringing as poor midwest troublemakers that society was forgetting and casting aside. On Stink a few of those songs are pretty directly political. Stuck in the middle directly deals with the feeling of being trapped between the two coasts and down south and the feeling that you're leading a hopeless life resigned to flipping burgeres because of it. Kid's Don't Follow could be sung at the protests right now: "Can't stop looting Can't stop smoking Kids ain't wondering Can't stop choking Kids won't stand still Kids won't shut up Kids won't do it You talk to 'em now" Fuck school, political. God damn Job, political. Fast forward a couple years to let it be and you have Androgynous which is fiercely political. I view 'unsatisfied' as being political and as a cry of the generation kinda thing. On Tim you have Westerberg at his most 'political' with 'Bastards of Young' where he puts into words the feeling of a generation.
I wouldn't be surprised if the recent upheaval has inspired Paul but I imagine he'd address it the same way he's always approached politics and not with some kind of cheesy protest song that I think people think is a requirement to be a 'political' song
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