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Post by FreeRider on Mar 16, 2019 20:50:06 GMT -5
It reminds me of what Billy Joel once said about "Piano Man", that it was a nothing song and that it went nowhere. It just repeated the verses and he joked that he thought someone in the audience would catch on and give him a knowing smirk like, "I see what you're doing there!" I saw him comment in an interview once that he had had the funny experience several times of walking into a restaurant or bar that happened to have a piano player providing background music. The guy would recognize him, get excited, and launch into an off-the-cuff instrumental version of "Piano Man". They'd play through it once, then, about halfway through the second time around, they'd look puzzled, sure that they must be forgetting a bridge or a change or something. They'd pause before the third time through, start slower, and hestitantly, and look to Billy for a clue. He'd just shrug, as if to say: "Yeah, I know. That's all there is. I don't know how it got to be such a big deal, either!" ha! that's a great story by Joel!!! but somehow Paul and Billy made it work....and speaking of songs with no bridges, I just heard the Clash, Train in Vain. That one has no bridge either! I guess it works because the song is really kind of a groove
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Mar 17, 2019 20:27:06 GMT -5
I just heard the Clash, Train in Vain. That one has no bridge either! I guess it works because the song is really kind of a groove I always thought the "You must explain why this must be/Did you lie when you spoke to me" part was the bridge. It's similar but different to the pre-chorus and has it's own feel.
A good bridge is important but not mandatory. It's also a really difficult thing to do well. Tom Petty wrote some excellent bridges.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 18, 2019 9:38:56 GMT -5
Hey, you're right! It's so subtle that I missed it. What makes it genius is it's simplicity. It didn't stray too much from the song's groove but it's a simple couplet and it works.
Also, on the commute into work, I heard the Stones "Start Me Up" and that song has no bridge either, I don't think! And then later on, U2's "With or Without You" came on. I think that's another song that is basically bridge-less as well. I'm guessing it's variations on the verses? The chords repeat themselves---the Edge doesn't slip into some relative minor or do any circle of 5ths stuff.
So, yes. There are no rules and you don't have to conform to the ABABCAB format, nothing is mandatory. If you're creative enough, you can find a way to really hammer home a chorus or a riff without doing a bridge.
Holeinthedrapes makes a good point too, about "Eyes Like Sparks". That song is bare bones and raw, a good groove, and there's not much there in terms of the usual pop/rock verse-chorus-verse format stuff. And it works!
although Paul was a bit dismissive of "Unsatisfied" in its song structure and his own lack of affinity for it, the song still conveyed a powerful emotion to the audience and one that we identified with. Even if he was acting a little bit in the performance.
As I've stated before, the man has too much talent to be done. But if he is, and he's only doing stuff for himself, I just hope he releases one last great thing for us fans and goes out with a bang. However, I guess our and his definition of "great thing" might be different, lol....
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Post by BronxTeacher on Mar 19, 2019 11:45:46 GMT -5
Dylan didn't have a bridge in any of his songs until Ballad of a Thin Man on his sixth album. That's standard in the folk tradition: verse-chorus/refrain-verse-chorus/refrain and on and on with maybe an instrumental break here and there. And Dylan really tests the limits of this format. His album Tempest has a song about the Titanic with 45 verses and no chorus or refrain or bridge.
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Post by raccoon on Mar 19, 2019 20:31:52 GMT -5
At this point I would like to offer you all a bit of confounded 'crunge'.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 20, 2019 9:09:25 GMT -5
Dylan didn't have a bridge in any of his songs until Ballad of a Thin Man on his sixth album. That's standard in the folk tradition: verse-chorus/refrain-verse-chorus/refrain and on and on with maybe an instrumental break here and there. And Dylan really tests the limits of this format. His album Tempest has a song about the Titanic with 45 verses and no chorus or refrain or bridge. You're right about that folk tradition, thanks for citing that example of song format. I think even Paul mentioned that or something when doing interviews about Folker? And as for whether or not "Unsatisfied" is musically complete as a song, it's all subjective. As others have mentioned, had Paul tried to add anything else to it, it would've changed the feel/tone of the song. Me? I kind of agree with Paul that there wasn't much there to the song--- musically. The sentiment and emotional feeling behind is impactful though. Funny, too, how some artists are surprised at which songs the fans like or latch onto, defying their own expectations of what the fans would like. Pete Townshend said he never understood why a stupid song like "Boris the Spider" or "Magic Bus" were beloved by the fans when he thought they were throwaways and filler material. At this point I would like to offer you all a bit of confounded 'crunge'. In the end, the Stones said it best---"it's only rock and roll but I like it, like it, yes I do!"
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Post by twicks1 on Mar 20, 2019 10:42:35 GMT -5
"Unsatisfied" has a bridge, does it not? "Everything goes, anything goes," etc. Musically it's all there, never would have dreamed it was considered incomplete 'til reading this thread.
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Post by teddinard on Mar 20, 2019 12:23:17 GMT -5
Fairly recently I took the trouble to learn "Unsatisfied" on guitar, and I'd say it's a pretty interesting progression, for a rock song at least. And it's interesting the way the melody keeps going up a fifth (I think) in the verse to build intensity. And as pointed out above, there is a bridge or at least a second part ("so it goes so, slowly on" etc.). I'd say it's a quite an artfully made song.
It's funny that some on this thread have held up "Hands Together" as an example of songcraft. I like it quite a bit, but it's possible to hear it as just a bunch of verses without even a chorus. The "put your hands together" part could be construed as the chorus, I suppose, but its melody, at least the first half, is the same as the verses. And forget about looking for a bridge. Again, I like it, but I do find it somewhat repetitive. It has more words than "Unsatisfied" but it's rather less musically.
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 21, 2019 8:46:25 GMT -5
To me, Unsatisfied has no bridge. What is cited as a bridge gets repeated so to me that is another verse. The song starts off with the chorus, though.
And "Hands Together" does have a bridge:
And the evening crept out backwards Makes his usual excuse As the night loves to fall apart When it’s only you
Sure--"Hands Together" is a bit long winded and does get a little repetitive, I'll agree with that. I don't believe anyone held that tune up as an example of songcraft as much as an example of being a more polished tune in its execution/construction and as well as with "King of America". Those songs are something more than the quick-take basement demos that comprises Wild Stab.
Regardless, all valid points, everyone views things differently. There is no right or wrong here when it comes to our own responses, these songs take on personal meanings. How can that be wrong? What's wrong to me is Paul not going out with a crash of thunder, if he's really done putting out anything more than basement tape stuff and really hanging it up for good.
Hell, get back with Tommy, get over the mental hurdles and cut a few more tracks with him! go get Josh Freese or Michael Bland; get those tracks mixed at Kevin Bowe's studio and have a really good farewell release.
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Jer
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Post by Jer on Mar 21, 2019 11:41:13 GMT -5
To me, Unsatisfied has no bridge. What is cited as a bridge gets repeated so to me that is another verse. While I agree that Unsatisfied doesn't have a bridge, I disagree that a bridge can only appear once in a song. The Beatles often went back to the bridge a second time. Back then it was often called a middle 8.
Just a couple off the top of my head: She Said, She Said - "When I was a boy..." (the 3/4 part) It Won't Be Long - "Since you left me..." We Can Work It Out - "Life is Very Short..." (again, interestingly, the bridge is in 3/4)
And in Synchronicity II The Police do the bridge twice, with slightly different words. (I knew they did it too).
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Post by FreeRider on Mar 22, 2019 10:19:50 GMT -5
Oh yeah, def Beatles---who broke with convention many times. As I've said, there are no rules or limits on creativity. There's a template of verse-chorus-verse, etc but no one is bound to it.
And I wasn't necessarily saying a bridge can only appear once but that was more a particular point about "Unsatisfied"....but then, if it were a bridge, then it would be an interesting structure by Paul to do a chorus and bridge, sans verses! The bridge would therefore be the connector from a little musical break or passage back into the chorus!
There are no set rules and it's interesting to see what artists can do with the pop/rock song structure. You cite great examples by the Beatles. One more is "A Day In the Life"....not sure if I'm analyzing it properly but it's so chock full of ideas:
I'd love to turn you on...
woke up, fell out of bed, dragged a comb...
and then Lennon singing, "ahhhh" as part of another musical bridge/interlude or something?
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Post by twicks1 on Mar 22, 2019 14:43:14 GMT -5
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Jer
Beagle Scout
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Post by Jer on Mar 22, 2019 18:23:53 GMT -5
Yea that's good. As miserable as he was on that tour, and of all the footage and the three shows I saw, including the Detroit show where he was sick, he never phoned it in.
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Post by brianlux on Mar 27, 2019 1:47:57 GMT -5
Maybe with the April 13 RSD release on vinyl of the I AM SAM soundtrack, that will light a little spark in Paul. Ya never know!
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Post by towilmusic on Mar 30, 2019 17:32:17 GMT -5
Buncha Randoms:.
Today, We had Mono with a few choice Dtas tracks playing on the car stereo the entire day this afternoon. Stopped and helped a disabled vehicle's owner figure out the new fangled new gas containers . Its sure aint springtime here in stl at all you all. Froze my soul off. Stopped to fillup my rear passenger wheel with a bitta air 'cause it looked low....Froze my soul off.
All the while cranking out paul and the mats.
T'was a good day.
Admitted that I've been rather consistent listening to 'em all these years. Paul has been massively productive since I bought Lib as a kid. Think he's been better since s/m than he's ever been see: tidc: wild stab. we're spoiled folks...those who disagree can go join the fb matsgroup lol.
One of my favorite threads since joining...thanks all.
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Post by towilmusic on Mar 30, 2019 17:34:52 GMT -5
Choice dtas tracks:
Mgr N Baoos Tl
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Post by FreeRider on May 11, 2019 13:35:44 GMT -5
so....is it over? Either he's working on some big stuff and he's waiting for this board to be completely dead and no one paying attention so he can do some guerrilla releases or he's really done?
It's been super quiet here I guess.
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Post by Veets on May 11, 2019 21:28:52 GMT -5
Paul might be done, but Tommy brought it last night in Chicago. Just one guy and a guitar, he held a room of a couple hundred people. Reminded me of the solo stuff that Paul did years back.
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Post by FreeRider on May 12, 2019 9:29:35 GMT -5
Paul might be done, but Tommy brought it last night in Chicago. Just one guy and a guitar, he held a room of a couple hundred people. Reminded me of the solo stuff that Paul did years back. Well, at least Tommy is still out there and going hard as he can for the fans! That's good to see. I know nothing lasts forever, but if it's all coming to an end--this message board, Paul's playing and recording days, I'd at least like to see Paul go out with a thunderous crash. Not just quietly fading away into obscurity and the dustbin of history. But who knows? Maybe there are family issues he needs to take care, like taking care of his mom or something, then family comes first--always.
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Post by raccoon on May 13, 2019 16:49:42 GMT -5
Paul might be done, but Tommy brought it last night in Chicago. Just one guy and a guitar, he held a room of a couple hundred people. Reminded me of the solo stuff that Paul did years back. I take it Tommy was opening for the Lemonheads in Chicago? How were they? Tommy is part of their tour. I think they were in Minneapolis on Saturday. Anybody catch it?? ...Anybody record it?
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