Dave Cobb and Paul

[Chris]

Recall the aborted Mats sessions in 2014: www.paulwesterberg.com/replacements-wooly-mammoth/

Apparently, the sessions went south when Paul realized they couldn't track live to capture the essence of the band: “We cut some stuff there (meaning in Waltham, MA at Dave's studio) , and then we recorded some here in Minneapolis, too,” says Westerberg. “I thought it would be dead easy to just capture them, and it wasn’t. It was too much fuss about how everything sounded. I’ve always said that I can mean a song only once a day. I think that maybe the others in the band have different thoughts about recording than I do. I wasn’t in the mood to overdub and do it that way. I’m a bit sick of that process. We’re like a bunch of old vaudevillians, as cobwebby as that sounds, and it gives us an advantage over most of the stuff today, that is layered and affected. I wanted to capture what we were doing live, and we didn’t quite capture it, so… maybe we’ll try again, maybe we won’t.”

“We were playing in this professional studio,” Josh Freese continues, “and Paul had to be told that we couldn’t play all in a room, without headphones, because the instruments would bleed into each other. As soon as Paul realised that, the wind seemed to go out of his sails.” “Difficult is putting it mildly,” adds Stinson. “There’s the obstacle of fighting with yourselves about the way it’s supposed to feel, to make it a true ’Mats song. We know what that feeling is. We’ve felt it a lot onstage in the last year. He and I have completely different problems with it in the studio. Paul’s got a few really great songs that he’s sitting on. But it’s hard for him to compete with his past Replacements legacy, and I think that gets in his head too much. For me, I want it to be as fucking balls-out as it can be, and if it’s not going to be as balls-out, it’s got to be very special. We hold it very precious in different ways.” paulwesterberg.proboards.com/post/130888

As guitarist Dave Minehan (who also owns Wolly Mammoth) later noted, "I actually had those guys in here in a secret recording session a year and a half ago, and it was the hardest session I've ever done in my life. You know he's an unorthodox character. You say white, he says black. You set up for one thing and he starts dismantling it and sets it up another way. So you have to anticipate that this is gonna be an inversion of what you think it's gonna be." www.bostongroupienews.com/DavidMinehanInterview.html

So with all that in mind -
I came across a fascinating article on Dave Cobb, Grammy winning producer based out of Nashville. His studio is world class but his process is unorthodox, preferring spontaneity and recording vocals like with the band: "With ... any singer he records, Dave cuts the vocals live with the band. "I never tell the singer we're keeping these vocals, either. It's always: 'Let's cut with the band to get the track.' And then we may cut the song three, four, five, six, seven, eight times, but I've got each vocal take. I comp the master take according to the vocal appeal, and then that winds up being the record. Really, 90 percent of the time, the singers don't have to re-sing anything. It's not the same, he says, if you record the track and then put the singer on his or her own in a booth. Suddenly it's all about the singer, and everyone's looking to them to get the magic take. The pressure is on. "That doesn't happen when they're singing with everybody, which is what I do. It's a group effort, everybody's having a good time, and no one thinks they're paying attention to just the vocal. I think it's a lot freer for a singer. Also, the band comes up and goes down when the singer gets loud or gets quiet. I think if you cut without the singer, you don't go for that, and suddenly your band isn't dynamically responding to the emotion of the singer. I've done it the other way, and it's just incredibly hard to get it to sound like a record." And despite winning Grammys for his work with alt-country artists like Jason Isbell, John Prine and Rival Sons, Cobb is a rock n' roll guy at heart: "His roots are in rock & roll, despite the strong reputation for work in country and Americana. "When I was a kid, all I cared about was the Beatles, the Stones, Zeppelin, AC/DC. That stuff was my childhood."

And then there's this line from Cobb, which sounds like it came from Paul himself:
"I think when I make records, I'm trying to recreate what Jimmy Miller did with the Stones, getting the feel, to get that thing where the hair stands up on your arms. That's what I chase, more than sounds. Trying to get it so you're turning off your analytical mind — you're just feeling it and going with it. That's what I'm chasing on old records." www.soundonsound.com/people/dave-cobb

We may never see Paul set foot in another recording studio, but if he does it sure would be nice to see him armed with a dozen crackin' tracks along with Tommy, Josh Freese and Dave Minehan. Turn on the Marshals, throw up the faders and let the tape roll for a week or two. My guess is Dave Cobb would be the perfect guy to let it all unfold and would capture something special....

[con]

Interesting! I’d forgotten about those sessions. Thx for putting that together, Chris. I agree wholeheartedly — sounds like the right kind of guy to handle Paul’s, ahem, quirks. Email Darren Hill!

What’s baffling to me is, if you’re working with the ‘Mats you should know by now their m.o. — why battle for your vision of a record when Paul has the vision!? And Minehan, of all people, sheesh... you’d think he would get it. Put ‘em in a room, have everything set beforehand, have the tape rolling, catch magic. Lightning in a bottle. Give ‘em a nudge now and then, but for crying out loud let ‘em rip! Overdubs!? Separation!? This is rock ‘n’ roll not Mumford & Sons. Tim is a classic record not because of the sonics, but because of the songs and the performances. Rock ‘n’ roll happens. It isn’t made. It’s gotta have that primordial, wheels-about-to-come-off feeling or it’s not rock, it’s just music.

Great post, Chris. Now for how to get through to Paul...

[Jer]

Feb 12, 2020 20:21:30 GMT -5 con said:

...why battle for your vision of a record when Paul has the vision!? And Minehan, of all people, sheesh... you’d think he would get it. Put ‘em in a room, have everything set beforehand, have the tape rolling, catch magic. Lightning in a bottle. Give ‘em a nudge now and then, but for crying out loud let ‘em rip! Overdubs!? Separation!? This is rock ‘n’ roll not Mumford & Sons. Tim is a classic record not because of the sonics, but because of the songs and the performances. Rock ‘n’ roll happens. It isn’t made. It’s gotta have that primordial, wheels-about-to-come-off feeling or it’s not rock, it’s just music.

I would argue that they would battle for a different vision of a record because Paul's vision is flawed. Paul's vision is to sit in his basement, record a song 8 minutes after he wrote it, maybe keep it, maybe record over it, and be done with it. Almost none of it is ever heard by anyone. If there's magic there, it might be the best magic. If there isn't, oh well, no one will ever know what could have been. The flaw is that a song is almost never realized 8 minutes after it's first written, in arrangement or performance. Especially songs written by the caliber of a writer that Paul is. Still, that's Paul's vision, it's his to pursue, and we'll consume what he cares to share (and debate its merits from there). 

What Tommy and Minehan saw was the potential that the material has, and that putting a little bit of work into it would help to craft it into something bigger and better. There's a huge difference between the basement stuff and Mumford and Sons, but you can't lump Tim in with what Paul wants to do because it's not even close. The sweet spot is between the basement and Tim. Not major label production, but not basement throw-aways either. Work the songs out a few times, get `em down live in a take or 2, minimal overdubs. The spirit and rawness is there, and the rough edges of the demo/first take are smoothed out a bit. The Songs for Slim EP is the best example - loose and raw but fully realized and performed. Paul can't be bothered. It's his prerogative, but if I were in the room, I'd be with Dave and Tommy, pleading to put just a little bit of effort into getting the material to reach it's potential. And if it's going to be: learn and record once, in the span of a few minutes, with no chance to explore ideas or improve the arrangements or performances, it's wasted potential, time, energy, and money, and more frustration than it's worth.

And from Paul's side, he doesn't need those guys, a recording studio, or an engineer to do what he wants to do, so it's not worth his time either. That's why I think those sessions failed, and that without some change of heart and attitude, we're unlikely to hear anything new beyond the basement stuff. 

[anarkissed]

- Paul isn't very interested in recording, period. He never liked playing live. I think the only reason he even fell into this as a career was that it seemed like a better option than janitorial work, despite the many things that he disliked about it. I think he would have preferred to have been just a respected songwriter, who only had to record as far as a demo of a song that someone else would go to all the trouble of polishing and overdubbing on in a studio. Maybe every once in a while, he'd make a little solo compilation of his favorites for family and friends.

- I don't know who told them they couldn't be recorded all playing at the same time in the same place, but I think whoever said that either didn't know how or just didn't want to go to all that trouble. I understand the concept of "bleed", but I'm pretty sure there have been successful recordings made of a band playing live.

- If Paul ever did put himself at the mercy of other musicians and engineers and a producer, for God's sake, don't expect him to sit in there for eight hours while guys experiment with different amps and mic placement. Do all that ahead of time, do all the pre-production, have the band rehearse by themselves, then bring him in for a a couple of hours to run through the songs once or twice and hope for the best.

[Jer]

Feb 13, 2020 16:12:49 GMT -5 anarkissed said:

- Paul isn't very interested in recording, period. He never liked playing live. I think the only reason he even fell into this as a career was that it seemed like a better option than janitorial work, despite the many things that he disliked about it. I think he would have preferred to have been just a respected songwriter, who only had to record as far as a demo of a song that someone else would go to all the trouble of polishing and overdubbing on in a studio. Maybe every once in a while, he'd make a little solo compilation of his favorites for family and friends.

I agree for the most part, but he does seem to enjoy what he does in the basement. It's recording at a very primitive level, but no one is (or was) forcing him to do that, and it wasn't a money thing, so he had to enjoy it at some level. But at the pro-studio level, yeah, he has a long history of being hostile to producers and sabotaging sessions and recordings, and touring seems just painful for him. If he enjoyed it, logic would dictate that he would do it because there's certainly demand and reward.  

Feb 13, 2020 16:12:49 GMT -5 anarkissed said:

- I don't know who told them they couldn't be recorded all playing at the same time in the same place, but I think whoever said that either didn't know how or just didn't want to go to all that trouble. I understand the concept of "bleed", but I'm pretty sure there have been successful recordings made of a band playing live.

That is very, very odd. I can tell you first hand that rock bands record live, in the same room, all the time, in basement studios and super-pro studios. In fact, most producers and bands insist on it. The best producers know that the magic comes form the performance and the interaction between the musicians more than the sounds coming from the instruments (though that's important too) and you just can't get the same thing if you're not in the same room, looking at each other and feeding off each other.  There are variations on how to do it, but it's more common than not. 

There are isolation rooms at most studios where the amps are live and mic'd so there is little to no bleed, and if there is, it's inaudible in the mix, or at worst, not detracting. The band plays together in the big room with the drums, bass amp is in the hallway, one guitar amp is in the stairwell and the other is in the vocal booth, something like that. 

And the concept of bleed in recording basic tracks has become more of an art in recent times, where a little bit of guitar or bass in the drum tracks can even add a little something. (Exile on Main Street anyone?) You don't want much, but you don't lose sleep trying to eliminate it. Point being, even if they don't have iso rooms for the amps, glass and wood baffles go a long way towards minimizing bleed, and a bit of bleed would certainly not be out of place on a Replacements record. 

Feb 13, 2020 16:12:49 GMT -5 anarkissed said:

- If Paul ever did put himself at the mercy of other musicians and engineers and a producer, for God's sake, don't expect him to sit in there for eight hours while guys experiment with different amps and mic placement. Do all that ahead of time, do all the pre-production, have the band rehearse by themselves, then bring him in for a a couple of hours to run through the songs once or twice and hope for the best.

Yeah, you can't avoid some waiting around when it's time to track, even if you're the star, but in general you're right.  Ok, the session starts at 10?  I'll show up at 1. By the then the drums will be all mic'd and checked, the bass will be ready, and we can get a guitar tone and start playing in short time. Doesn't sound like that was the problem with this session, but it can be brutal listening to 3 guys try to figure out which snare to use on a song for 90 minutes. 

[Freddy]

Dave Cobb would be an interesting choice as a producer for The Replacements. I love what he did with Sturgill Simpson, Jason Isbell,Shooter Jennings, and Chris Stapleton. Shooter Jennings is becoming known as a producer also (back to back Grammy's) as he has worked with Tanya Tucker, Jamey Johnson, Duff McKagan, and currently Marilyn Manson among others. His background and tastes are diverse and I'd guess that someone like Rick Rubin would also be able to make an interesting record with them. A great producer should be able to pull from the artist things they (the artist) may not even know they want or think they would be comfortable with.

Even if it's just a handful of songs, I'd love to hear something new from them. They aren't going to recreate "Tim" or "Let It Be" obviously, but if the Stones can put together some really fantastic songs (like on A Bigger Bang) 40 years after making their first record, it's not far fetched to think Paul and Tommy have more to give.